Even if added it won’t matter since even planes will explode from 1 bad look from a 20mm
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There is pretty often enemies with 12.7mm which randomly burn you from one shot just because yes
Where’s my full yellow belt on hispano 404? what about hispano Mk.V? Mk.II? Oerlikon FF? mg FF? ho-5? and the list continues
And filler percentage can’t be a sidegrade? more filler in a 20mm shell means less fragmentation, more blast and worse ballistics (concentrated damage and requires more precision)
so then why do you oppose so hard pal? maybe because you lie in here because there is a difference, you do need to hold a position with them for a set amount of time and armor does stop them in a noticeable way.
I Said many times mg151/20 and Mg151/15 FI-T rounds are example to follow
Load more AP, take into consideration and make tactics around it.
Much like how a P-51 plans around low speed control
NS-23 was made for fighter on fighter action, made to replace the B-20s and hVAKs
said better shell is redundant since there is a belt made entirely of rounds with 6g of TNT eq
What about Mk-103, im sure ho-229 would appreciate 2 mg151/20s instead
Maybe because armor stops fragmentation or are actually r*tarded? Just think pal, think
You could literally wipe more bombers with an I-225 in a frontal attack unlike a S.O.8000 with 6 20mm cannons.
So then use the weak 20mm cannon as an excuse to tick the BRs down? Maybe?
And? So then that means the Japanese one must be worth 3 because it is also not in a folder
Which now apparently you care about realism, means that the photos at the start of the post are proof that 20mm cannons don’t split planes in half.
Look at the mg151/20 which apparently will become super broken and the only which can oneshot!
Also the soviet testing just said “came down” and aircraft can come down if you shred the powerplant or control systems too, not only structural failure.
I can tell since you only have 3 planes on it, it’s M.B.175T, S.O.8000 Narval and NC.900.
Much I suppose you don’t really care about balance if that means your clicker training on “target destroyed” keep kickin in
No it was actually because later aircraft started to become harder to shoot down not only thanks to more armor but also because they became larger, more numerous and practically 100% made of better alloys instead of wood or y’know wartime steel of the “im losing the war” type of quality, big plane requiere more gun to shoot down, which is why most anti bombers have x4 30mm cannons or one overkill +37mm cannon, but bomber damage models can now.
I suppose because you can’t live outside of furballs? Would explain your point since inside furballs kill stealing is very common and shorter kill time would help prevent it or be more likely to steal if you are the thief.
so then Type 99 can be shit because that’s what it is and I can tell you to fuck off and don’t complain.
It’s not like im totally trying to make the positives like being able to use it as an extra leverage tool to move japanese props down (raising skill floor) and support addition of the firerate upgrades to the Type 99 Mark 2 to make it the Type 99 Mark 2 model 5
3 Likes
Lel
It doesn’t work so.
A6M always had high BR even at the time when Type 99 had shit damage.
A6M5 Otsu had like 40k repair cost only because good statistic
And its BR increasing started only recently while it has good damage long time
I mean that nerfs won’t decrease BRs already
So if you want it must be shit just because you imagined it - so no.
And don’t try to pass it off as something good.
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“choosing belts” =/= choosing what is in the belts, which has been my point all along
Two opposing things cannot be true at the same time. Either damage is heavily nerfed, OR they are changed to the sidegrade MG151/15-like system.
There are already benefits to bringing a small number of AP rounds.
Pretty brave to introduce a cannon primarily to fight fighters with worse velocity and RoF than the one it is replacing.
What better shell? MG151/20 mineshell is very light and as evidenced earlier in the thread it is completely stopped even by relatively fragile Spitfire wing structure.
Ho 229 would appreciate having a rudder far more; MK103s are way better than MG151/20s.
I hit an enemy on the wing root (very common). The pilot is protected by armor behind him, and not to the side. Fragmentation kills him in 2-3 shots since there is a clear path to him through unarmored, thin aluminum skin.
SO8000 has 1500rds of MG151/20 which is still a great cannon. I-225 only has 400rds.
You say they’re weak but any Zero is packing more firepower than a Bf109 without gunpods, even under “realistic” damage.
cool
What was the ammo load in each plane? What guns were firing? Which shell hit?
Yes, and? It’s already well known that if you shoot the engine out, the plane will eventually land or crash.
Almost every plane in the western theatre was all-metal or used only small portions of wood. The same planes were in service from beginning to end of the war.
The Hispano cannons were notoriously unreliable, american-produced models even more so.
What are you even talking about?
A duel is a 1v1 match with no other players involved where both players start at equal speed and energy, and often with equal aircraft.
Where does Air RB fit into this description?
Why would Type 99s be bad? MK108 sucks because even if its shells destroyed the enemy with any hit anywhere, its velocity would still make it worse than using 20mm cannons.
Even the low tier Type 99 Model 1 has better velocity than MK108, and Model 2 is similar to all other good 20mm cannons.
They are not moving down. Ever. Regardless of what changes happen.
“b-b-but the type 99s are good!!!” does not make such bad aircraft superior to a Yak-3U or F4U-4B. It would just be a double nerf.
point you use when it is only useful to you, because the only belts with full explosive have low filler explosive variants (Type 99 or shvak(late)/B-20) or no tracers (AN/M2 and M3), But I every other cannon can eat sh*t and rot.
Type 99’s more powerful shell is left obsolete because there is a full tracer belt of the “weaker” shell.
Russian FI round has 8g too, but it’s obscure as fuck because the tracer belt does all the work.
And I suppose the german planes can also cry because the 1 fi-t shell (which has respectable ballistics) they have fragmentate, but I suppose I should see you play all day play with the tracer belt on a K-4 because since the fragmentation effect is just as powerful, it even has 20mm IT, which just acts as 12.7mm API-T.
They way you oppose it makes it seems as they are both the same, maybe because the sidegrade does tick down damage considerably compared to today.
Made redundant because the enemy is just killed before that, even from the rear a shell just needs to hit the tail and it breaks, or simply move the side a little and blow off the wing.
Maybe because the damage and penetration were dogshit and wasn’t helped by smalls clips, better to take a few less rounds and make them do their job efficiently.
And then the japanese are more stupid because they tanked their firerate to 490rpm just like that and just later on they went “mmm a little more firerate wouldn’t be so bad”
Which is how I can tell you barely played because the main downside is the horrendous rollrate + bad firerate (450rpm) combo which makes deflections shots a little more difficult.
Which makes armor more relevant and which in turn makes AP more relevant
And also the TOP of a wing is a smaller targer and fragmentation scales poorly with distance.
Currently you hit the bottom, top and the tail of the enemy to make it come down in the blink of an eye.
I-225 outranges it by a lot.
MG151/20 is a 20mm cannon, we said 20mm are overperforming but the change it is still a near a bottom tier cannon that it is also very common.
The 109 past the E-4 model has the mineshell with x2.48 times the filler. Completely nullified advantage because of some whine because it’s not fair germany can trade filler for ballistics, and people conviniently hover over the “reduced ballistics” part.
The enormous flashes already show the mine shell at work, but your blind ass can’t even read properly.
Maybe because the fuckin thread on japanese props are on a standstill and people don’t bother to talk.
Since I only enjoy the Japanese interceptors in any way I can’t provide helpful info on those threads.
…Which you can use as an argument, can’t you plan past 2 steps or what? Raise the skill floor, Japanese newbies stop clubbin on American newbies, SL earned comes down, planes come down.
Where both Type 99s lose on firerate and even the Mark 2 losing the early mg FF in terms of firerate and the mark 1 barely beating it in ballistics.
The damage merging of all fillers and the tracer belts are the only 2 factors carrying it now.
We have bullshit like the Mk-108/Mk-103 simply being able to black out 2 sections instead of 1 being seen as an “enormous upgrade”, both cases the wing falls off pal.
And armor is barely relevant
I’ll tell you a difference, shoot at a bomber’s wing and You’ll see ALL but I mean ALL 20mm cannons leave a red section from cannons the Russian hef shell to the german mine round, while 23mm and up leave it black, what an upgrade I suppose.
Almost as if damage is now simulated based on caliber instead of filler, you can’t see different doctrines and different constructions, just caliber, can’t await for the Kv-1’s 76mm pen the same as the sherman’s 76mm because “it’s not fair”, “I reacted first”, “I shoot at him first”, “I have to aim at weakspots while he doesn’t”.
Wow a bomber MAY survive ONE stray 20mm shell
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Air RB is more popular than Ground RB. This characterization of the player base is likely inaccurate and is just your own projection.
You were not here when bombers were “relevant”…the only time they were relevant is when some bomber with overly large payload and generous top speed was added to lower BR. The last relevant bomber was the Me.264 and it was an automatic loss for allied teams if Axis side had 4 of them. There wasn’t any counter unless your team had 4x air-spawn fighters…and guess what…prior to it’s introduction any decent air spawn fighter like P-47 had them removed. The P-38 didn’t even have air spawn.
5+ years ago the La-7 was completely irrelevant in the game due to ShVAK lack of damage. The only relevant USSR fighter in the bracket was the Yak-3 and that was because the Berezin had high fire chance. Taking more ShVAK compared to Berezin was actually a downgrade.
Japanese planes were an equally bad spot; the J2M2 used to be 3.7BR in spite of having climb and turn performance similar to an LF IX Spitfire.
Why? It’s completely relevant when we can look at past instances of “realistic” damage and see how things actually went. It’s also important to understand that this theoretical new system of damage would be even worse than what we had in the past since old MG.151 damage is still “too much”.
You can go earlier in thread and see worst case ShVAK damage where it does NOTHING to Fw-190 D-13 and one of the advocates here saying that is perfectly reasonable.
Okay and I have said in this thread I want to see a custom belt option be added specifically to avoid this
Which is something they’re FAR more likely to do than to redo every damage model of every prop in the game
I played 109 F2 with just one of such cannons and it was extremely easy to shoot anything down. Extremely reliable firepower. As I said at the time: I’ll take ten of these cannons to put on my own aircraft.
Control surfaces will eat shells easily.
The cannon’s original firerate was just that low, as designed by Oerlikon. Hispano wasn’t much faster at ~600rpm. Both did their job.
The rollrate is not as much of a downside as the nonexistent rudder. It is trivial to dodge 229 just by moving a little to the side. 450rpm is also not THAT bad considering the R2Y2 I played recently is a similar BR with 500rpm guns.
Yes, armor will protect the pilot.
But you will most likely be aiming dead center anyway:
And even from a low rear aspect like this the wings present a MASSIVE target to hit, even if by accident.
Why does range matter that much? You should engage bombers from the front hemisphere, just get closer.
A shell that is 90g in total and unable to pierce through internal wing structure, as we saw with the Spitfire testing. Filler matters very little when your blast is deflected by an internal bulkhead and is entirely unable to damage anything beyond it.
Which I have said, in this thread, that it was an unfair and onesided nerf.
There were at least 2 different mineshells, with different filler and explosive type. Which one was it And the IT shell with a large filling of incendiary and flash powder is capable of making that effect as well.
Threads don’t really matter when player statistics still show the Zeros doing great and far better than most others.
Ki-43-III Otsu’s engine was nerfed from an ahistorical 1500hp down to ~1100hp years back. Its climb rate and sustained maneuverability were gutted.
Guess what? It’s still 4.0, just like it was back then.
This will never stop because japanese aircraft are simply better suited to newbies. Turning is the most intuitive form of air combat.
All MK108 shells are 500m/s. All Type 99 Model 1 shells are 600m/s - a huge improvement.
Why would a Type 99-1 have the same velocity as Type 99-2? That’s basically what you’re saying.
5+ years ago
Was it me who said that damage is ok? No? Yeah because I didn’t call for a return of old simulations, I said we need a new system that reliably simulates damage, makes multiple other firepower and protection factors more relevant but doesn’t make every cannon a hammer god.
With current system it will just be
(best shell ballistics wise) / (explosive) / (explosive) / (explosive) / (tracer or explosive or both).
Any ideas to make firerates past 700 relevant
You don’t need to remodel every plane, just adjust various lines of codes of the cannons, which are shared between dozens of aircraft at a time, change 1 cannon and +10 aircraft are tweaked at the same time.
Did the deflections shot do well? Did you instakilll enemies for crossing your crosshair once? OR did you need to defend your position?
Well maybe we can add a new condition that makes shells phase past blacked out control surfaces.
an also it isn’t much of an issue either because of a wing’s natural shape and also different types of flaps, a split flap (seen on 190s, yakolevs, Reggianes and spitfires for example) or Fowler flap (seen on Fireflys) is even less obstrusive than a plain flap (seen on F4Us or 109s). That said I don’t want to pretend it doesn’t exist but it can easily be fixed while recoding.
So then why did Russians choose to lower firerate when the damage was apparently the same? Could it be because it was seen as an aceptable sacrifice to PACK more punch
Why did cannons evolve past 700Rpm then? Was it because they wanted 1-2 20mils to do the job of +4 20mm cannons.
229 has respectable rudder authority because of the special ENORMOUS airbrakes it has, the rollrate is as bad if not more as the Typhoon’s rollrate.
Which one is better in a headon? hispano Mk.II or mg151/20.
Also the situation is from a fighter on a fighter situation, the bomber I can just kill 1 one pass from every direction currently.
Which also disproves your flaps argument
Too bad most 20mm cannons will just rip the plane to shreds before that, But armor is a sin apparently.
oh right “a sidegrade” according to you.
Idk man which one is ripping the PANELS off the enemy and leaving flashes the size of a watermelon? extra careful read on Panels, not wings or tails.
Did you try to crash the stadistics? did you try the mostly fine interceptor or army line of Japan or is it only the A6M line?
And threads did make their jobs like on XP-50, Wyvern S.4, Bi-1 and Yak-3.
And even then you post under the BR adjustment anouncements and try to make aware gaijin of it. Or the small part of the community managed to make gaijin fix the buggy mg151/20 damage?
Gaijin Thinks We’re Stupid, Let’s Prove Them Wrong
Is it simply the lack of ACTUAL action?
And why was this fix looked for? because while every other cannon had the current overtuned damage, mg151/20 was left stuck.
So it’s either the current dumbfest or everybody comes down and leaves room for other factors like armor, AP and gunpods.
0 action from Japan main community to look for sources and fix it back up
Gaijin.net // Issues.
Report it then, make a report to at least pile on and catch the attention of gaijin.
Turn and turn but if you can’t hit reliably your shots you lose
Ok I said mg FF, which is complete poo because of bad belts, bad firerate, bad ballistics and bad ammo capacity.
But just “better belts” already make it 6.0 worthy, isn’t it stupid at least?
So why must a FI-T shell with 6.02g of TNT equivalent deal the same blast and pattern of damage as a thin cased shell with 29.76g of TNT equivalent
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Because that engine nerf was historic as @PercussionCap said
You suggest to find source to “back up” fake engine and blaming “Japan main community” that they don’t fake up sources?
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If it was ahistorical then it should have a source, so then percu just lied here
Maybe that’s on me, I admit, but not like over here they are tryin to make german mains look bad here.
But I retract the claim on the japanese community.
What do you mean?
Ki-43-III 1500hp engine was wrong and it was changed to correct 1100hp engine using historic sources
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yeah, because percu already uses the ki-43 III as an excuse to keep it’s point.
if it was historical then yeah im in favour of it.
But his point of view shows directly the issue: Plane which got a nerf with ~30% of its power (historic accurate change but for game point it is direct nerf) and BR wasn’t decreased but kept the same
For me this point is pretty clear
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This “new system” just happens to scale MG.151 to be worse than it was 5 years ago. And then every comparable cannon has to be scaled in relation to that. So yes…the “new system” would be even worse than the “old” system.
Why did the Russians decide to use the 20mm ShVAK and 2x Berezin arrangement on the Yak-9P that was produced post-war?
And my point too!
They don’t move at all!
I’ll write the Ki-43 III’s post later
done, now is just the same bureocratic mess as your local city council, post it again and again as BR announcement come in.
Hit rate is already a pretty good one. Also the only cannons that go past 700rpm in any meaningful amount are ShVAK or cold war ones, so I don’t see the need since ShVAKs are supposed to be unusable trash.
Simply not as cool as a custom belt picker
Extremely well
Yes
Why would I need to defend if their pilot was dead in 3 hits from a 700rpm gun? Do the math and figure out how short of a time that is.
The only thing holding me back was how bad the 109 F2 is.
There’s your “1 shell” that magically detaches tails from a hit “anywhere”
Did you forget jets started existing and fly much faster?
They still kept 4 cannons regardless. Look at F-100.
LOL
Against a bomber? Makes no difference.
This is the line (from you) that started that chain of replies
“bombers”, not “fighters”
Armor coverage is rarely more than just backseat protection. Why would it protect the pilot if I’m not hitting it? Why would the rest of the plane be any tougher just because there’s A LITTLE armor (usually 10-20mm) behind the pilot?
Sounds like 20mm damage is quite accurate then.
Such as?
XP-50 was untouched for many years. Wyvern is still too low. BI is untouched. Yak-3 only went up as a consequence of cannon buffs finally overturning the old statistics.
-one of these is for Ariete’s guns
-one of these is for MG151/20
-another for >20mm caliber cannons
-the last one for basically everything
And isn’t it funny one of the few times the community gets enough people to care is to BUFF CANNONS?
The nerf was historical. My point is that it resulted in NO br adjustment even years later.
It’s not exactly hard to aim in RB.
How many planes at 6.0 have ONLY the MK108(s) and aren’t jets? If it was just it and a pair of 7.92s in a 109 E it could be down at 2.7 or 3.0 where it would be pretty good. But it isn’t.
If you would READ what I wrote:
And like I said, even a MASSIVE nerf like this was not enough to move it down at all. It’s still a popular plane and has plenty of player statistics.
The BR change thread is merely suggestive. Gaijin does whatever they want, like currently moving 4 Zeros even higher.
Didn’t know that… should be 100% added in a future united Korea tree, name up to debate I suppose.
well same reason P-51 moved from 20mils to 12.7mil. 50cals are 20mm aren’t worlds apart in reality.
50 cals usually present better ballistics than contemporary 20mm cannons.
Tell me, if you had to choose from a Berenzin or a B-20 with actually simulated filler, which one would you prefer? The berenzin flies better, pens more armor, has more ammo, better firerate and the ShVAK’s explosive power was seen as underwhelming compared to designs from the lend lease specially when shot at sturdier or more armored planes.
So the 20mm cannon wasn’t seen as very good, copying the other 20mil weren’t seen as viable since they were heavier and trying to cram more filler meant sacrifice in ballistics, this leads to the 23mm adoption and then the Soviet simply handed down the newer Yak-9Ps they had.
At least my theory im still looking for more info, but you can think how the 109 E-3 shares BR with the E-1 because the 20mils are poo, now and for 100 years to come.
Custom belt picker will make more obvious AP has no purpose outside of strafing L3s to death.
It can come in too, but also simulate more factor on shells since tracers usually eat up space and thus explosive filler is smaller.
Did they come down as reliably as a 20mm would take them down? Because the 15mm would requiere a beat up plane or some nice hits near the cockpit area (with no armor to stop it)
It’s funny because you can see how the control surface is %50 of the total area at max, only exception is XF5U but if you blow off one elevon on it it can’t pitch up properly anymore and it crashes or you come in at perfectly the same altitude, but the main wing and it’s semi symmetrical build still are very vulnerable
Which btw you can still cut off a tail easily from the rear, no need for AP, just more explosive where you should aim AP at the tail pops off! easy!
Did you know these jets were harder to lit on fire because of higher flash points, chunkier, much sturdier thanks to radiators and other cooling system moving inside the aircraft?
But firerate did come up, look at NR-23.
Firerate helps ensure quick time to kill, currently it is simply better headon and a little more luck on the deflection shot.
previous point but also later on the cannons took a step back(includes the time they were seen as obsolete) and missiles came to the main show, now most jets have 1 cannon, with the firerate above 1,800RPM at least, for a constant conga line of bullets (better for quick deflections) instead of a “4 shells fly next to each other”.
Did I ever mention a bomber you c*nt? since when is the SO8000 a dedicated bomber, do you see the S.O.8000 have the enormous airframe of a bomber?
Only complain I saw was the 1 comment on the reddit post I linked.
the “nothing ever happens mentality”, it’s the same mess town halls do, you handle it the same, you annoy the fuck out of the it until they give in or threaten the PR (review bombs or negative content on social media in this case.)