after recent changes cannons do way to much damge.
20mm shells do damage equivalent to 30-40mm shells IRL:
Real life:
and how it works in WT:
For comparison - RL 30mm damage:
sources:
bug report:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/caCqf1a0LeFF
Fun fact, right now MG151/20 drains the least health from a module it hits. F.e. vs F89B (premium, so of course notoriously OP and tanky as hell) it often makes the wing part yellow-orange. Ho-5 or Shvak turn it dark red or black.
But in game aerodynamic impact of shells is largely dampened by instructor which allows for perfectly straight flight even after sustaining n
ridiculous amount of damage.
So it’ reasonable that structural damage would be slightly higher than in RL. Right now it’s A LOT higher. Even MGs with explosive filler hit like cannons right now. This all has to be toned down and different weapons should deal different amounts of damage, instead of everything ripping wings off in 2 shots.
I’ve tested all 20mm and they all had similar results.
I’ve used 20mm mine-shells since that’s what I have RL photos for to make 1:1 comparison.
GJ basically fix problem by replacing it with opposite problem.
they go from one extreme to another w/o actually fixing things
In all fairness you’re only showing the entry damage when a lot of the damage and fragmentation follows a forwards cone.
The same video you posted shows the other side of the Spitfire that took these rounds and it does not look pretty.
the other side had lot of small shrapnel damage but even then, summed up result of 3 rounds hitting, was not what I would consider totally blackened.
In WT totally black means that part loses all aerodynamic properties. Right now single 20mm shell is enough to blacken 1/3 of IL-2’s or P-47’s wing.
And, unlike fuselage that blackened is not critical unless it cuts your plane in half, blackened wing means that suddenly you lose 1/3 of your lift on one side potentially because of a single hit.
109 wing sustaining multiple hits from ShVAK (source: Gaijin):
109 wing in WT after single hit:
The spar is untouched though. Would the wing even fall of in game after that shot? And look at the holes irl, those would definitely offset the aerodynamic balance and lift, if this were to be implemented better, planes would need a lot more detailed damage models with more than twice segments they already have
It would possibly stay attached but that’s not an issue.
Issue is that this black part of wing generate 0 (zero) lift in game once it’s black.
in sim plane like that is often impossible to fly so wing attached or not does not matter - it’s equally lethal.
Right now every single 20mm+ cannon HE round can blacken huge section of a wing in one shot.
And yes, I am aware that wings have only those big building blocks so you can’t hit smaller part of it.
But DM states are not boolean. it’s not either fully intact or fully destroyed. if single hit disturb 20% of part’s area the part should not be black but IDK - yellow or orange at most.
Yellow/orange wing already generate less lift and more drag. exactly how wing with 20mm HE hole in it would act
Of course if GJ would want to split wings, etc into smaller pieces - I am all for it. I just don’t think it’s realistic expectation
Real life comparison are not directly relevant in War Thunder because the damage model system is still a gross simplification of what would happen in real life. A full fidelity damage model where every single round and every single component is simulated at all times would crash most peoples computers.
The protection analysis system typically shows the higher end of the potential damage spectrum and is not perfectly representative of what happens all of the time in game. There have been multiple occasions where I have been able to RTB with catastrophic amounts of damage. There have also been instances where I have absorbed damage from 20mm+ cannons and still remained somewhat effective in-game.
The fact of the matter is that I can post cases from real life where planes were able to RTB with catastrophic amounts of damage to make the argument that all guns in War Thunder vastly over-perform and need to be nerfed. But those cases are almost always an exception and not the rule.
Maybe it wouldn’t fall.off after 1 hit, but it’s close to and your plane is busted already. 2 hits and wing is gone.
Protection analysis shows random results. Hit 10 times, each time the damage will be different. But black wing is the average result.
exactly - you can run the simulation multiple times. Also - I had couple cases in last week where it corresponded exactly to average results of the simulation and so I can confirm on my own example that outcome like this can and do happen.
I don’t know if guns are too strong, planes too weak and built from too big elements or effect of black wings too significant.
Most likely combination of all above in various proportions.
I am also not asking GJ to return to previous system when some guns were underperforming.
Problem still remains regardless that GJ trying to fix underperforming guns made them now too strong.
This is a round with 1.7g of TNT equivalent … 17x less than 20mm HE mine shell
Disclaimer for @FeetPics it gets black ~50% of times and if not - it’s dark red
This is from in-game.
The Bf.109 is able to absorb around 5 shots of 20mm Hispano from point blank range into its right wing and fuselage area and is still able to fly and attempt to fight.
Just sitting in hangar and using protection analysis tool isn’t necessarily going to line up with what happens in game, or getting some minor component damaged like middle of fuselage is a lot less critical than getting something like wing root damage.
There is already long thread on real shatter. TLDR. Cannons are probably now doing realistic damage, but the plane damage model is outdated/limited. This results in things like wings and tails falling off instead control surface failures/aerodynamic issues, etc.
IRL it shouldnt take more than a 0.5-1 second burst from most fighters with cannons to get a kill on another fighter. That is about what we have now. Just that the damage looks worse than it should
Similar story; it can take around 4 rounds of MG.151 HE to destroy the wing of a P-47. Seems pretty realistic to me.
MG151/20 is right now the worst cannon vs wings, because it deals the least amount of module damage hence I failed to destroy P-51H wingtip in 2 shots and wing in 8 (4 of those M-geschoss).
4 is still on the low side, considering how big P-47 is.
On the other hand, no one would be able to continue to fight after receiving 4 m-geschoss to the wing, he would be coming home ASAP.
But tails are surely way too fragile. Same for wingtips. 1 shell and it’s gone. I mean, not necessarily a shell from MG151/20, but you catch my drift.
is that arcade vs bots?
Arcade FMs are much more forgiving and bots, same way as instructor in RB, might just negate certain damage until you rip the wing off completely.
and as for 109 video - most of those hits were into fuselage that, unless you cut plane in half is not as deadly as asymmetric wing damage
I agree with that. Sometimes the result of protection analysis tool is vastly different in game.
Nope. It’s custom game with simulator rules but lead indicator enabled for aim practice.
Instructor doesn’t negate damage. Any damage that you instructor can also be negated in simulator mode with control inputs. I know because I’ve flown back to base without wing tips or missing both elevators on more than one occasion while in sim.
(Yes you can fly without elevator in some planes if you use the flaps to adjust pitch. It’s risky but it can be made to work sometimes.)
