Cannons doing too much damge

Several issues:

  1. 20mm fragmentation generally producing medium to too large damage to wings and tail sections.
  2. MG-151/20 currently not competitive due to bad ballistic property while enjoy no advantage from the amount of filler.
  3. Larger the airframe, generally more vulnearble to cannon fire, due to more area to take realshutter damage and causes structrue breakage. — Unfair for heavy fighters and planes with large area in which should enjoy the ability to take punishment.
  4. Overperforming 20mm cannon generally unfair for planes with more firepower and with larger caliber, as their armament becomes an overkill to take down targets while spending more B.R. due to armament.

Several things to try:

  1. Return to legacy damage model as in 2023 Q4, and the gun damage should be more positive linked with the mass of explosive filler.
  2. De-link damage model from the fuselage with the wing, shell hitting fuselage should not lead to wing breakage. Instead, link it with engine, pilot and control cables, so that damage overflow goes to these internal parts instead of stuctural break-down.
  3. Seperate DM for different game modes. We can have different gun damage model for realistic & sim battle, and for air & ground battle. As the overperforming cannon damage may came from the efforts to negate the advantage of air-power & CAS in the ground battle mode.
3 Likes

You might consider going and comparing the damage that .50 cals do in any other flight simulator games. It is not even close.

.50 cal damage is vastly over-performing according to people that are advocating for the 20mm cannon nerf. So once again we end up with a game that looks more like Il-2 damage model where anything less than 20mm is RNG for pilot snipe.

Doesn’t this look fun? Having to make 3-5 passes on the same target and maybe getting a kill?

This post is from Q4 of 2023.

The MG.151, which was considered mediocre during Q4 2023 by people in this thread, is the gun that the OP wanted to nerf and then base scale all other cannon damage in relationship to. This is also when it was using the legacy damage system that dates all the way back to your previous dates.

That is quite literally turning the game into Il-2 GB levels of damage sponges. But without any of the cockpit or pilot modeling of Il-2 where at least oil and whatnot will obscure your view.

2023 Q3-4 DM only lasted for less than a month. From Nov to Dec, and probably came from the result of this thread. Before & after are the damage model we see today. You are pointing comments before & after that DM implementation.

1 Like

lol

Fires are lethal or deal critical damage a good >90% of the time. If you’re somehow not doing good damage while having 6+ guns with good RoF and the best ballistics at every BR that isn’t 3.0, that’s just a skill issue.

Apparently this guy didn’t lose any flight characteristics!
image
Neither did any of these!

Or all the B-52s I’ve effortlessly shot down in a single pass with Sabres.

This is a horse we already beat to death over in the .50cal thread.

.50s have excellent performance in every regard. The only possible complaint is that they don’t also fire cannon shells.

Ah yes, “abusing” my… slightly better Ki-84 that sits at 6.7 and regularly sees Su-11s. Or in the case of sim, a slower F4U-4B that also gets the privilege of sitting at a higher BR. You’re funny.

lol

Schrodinger’s armament, simultaneously useless and still forcing a higher BR because ???

(changes nothing)

Completely wrong. Bad cannon damage was most felt in air modes, where the vast majority of air combat happens.

IL2-GB had a bugged DM inherited from IL2-1946 where an universal damage processing rule wasn’t established. The damage is calculated by each aircrafts’ own damage model program function, as we see in many other sim game.

To make the matter worse, IL2-GB only provided all ball belt for 50cals, which doesn’t reflect any historical accuracy to any extent. IL2-1946 had a issue where there’s no model to calculate “penetration power” for AP damage, instead the penetration depends only by pure kinetic energy 1/2mv^2 and probably divided by 2 if it is explosive. i.e. makes AP and ball no difference.

Now you can see what IL-2 Korea does for 50cals, with all inc belts it basically ignites everything it touches. Ever miss WarThunder?

Current WarThunder damage model do relfects historical 50cal damage to some extent, especially for early & middle 50cals. The problem mostly goes for late 50cals for been too common among props and guns are over accurate.

Take a look at WT’s 50cal damage, it would require tremondous efforts sometimes to get a complete kill, even against Japanese props:


But it is just untrue that planes can take multiple passes and not dying keeping its performance for winning “skill issue” fight. Only if it doesn’t reflect to “gaijin” moment

Especially not same as we can see in Il-2 footages showed earlier where FW-190 won dogfight battle against Tempest and Spitfire after getting damage by 20mm guns lol

  • “Even against Japanese props”

  • fight against armored and self-sealed Japanese props

It says a lot to be fact

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And not self-sealed ones:

What is normal if you not hitted fuel tank and similar scenes could be seen on gun camera footages which you so like to use as proofs

Sure, so WT reflects what 50cal should does. Now it’s time for 20mms to be the same as historically accurate.

It sucks for only 2 single taps you would tear a part 2 P-47 flying in formation. As I’ve did a few times flying 190. Overpowered gun power also makes defensive formation in Sims much less useful.

For so many times, planes bringing 400kg of 50cal armament gets out-gunned by a single-20mm armamment only worth 60kg basically ruins how the fight goes. The very same monment even you are piloting 190A8 and outgunned or cancel each other by aYak with a single 20mm in head-ons.

2 Likes

No, it is not. It is also overperforming what must not be ignored by loving to alliance planes

20mm gun damage is also the thing which depends by the hit place and the chance of destryoing plane by some taps always exist. To be honest in this thread more document analysis should be done and not just arguing for ~1000 messages about how good or how bad it would be if Gaijin will change damage model

But another question is that flying formations wasn’t created to limit your freedom of movement in air so flying in formation just to get damage looks wrong

So I dont understand FW-190 suffers by the fact that you need only 1 20mm gun to destroy planes or it also overperforming because has 4-6 overperforming 20mm guns?

Yes and it is issue of American all .50 design where even planes with 4 20mm (N1K2 for example) armament weighted less than 6 .50 on F6F and could create much more damage than .50. Then US understood this issue and started equipping Navy planes with 2 20mm and then full 4 20mm. Army is stuck in a reverie about .50 even on the F-86. I think they wanted to create .60 and because of that didn’t changed to 20mm guns but it still means they used .50 so long what was mistake

3 Likes

Many people on the whole “nerf gun damage” side of the aisle beg to differ. You can scroll up earlier in the thread and see the argument that the chance for .50 cals to cause fires should be many many orders of magnitude less according to Kiwi.

You can go to older thread and see same people complaining about .50 cals ripping wings off and setting “instant” fires.

Yes the damage model of Il-2 Great Battles is fantastic because you actually have to aim and it takes real skill or something. The very long times to kill makes for a vibrant and dynamic game.

Even in this case there is significant damage to the flight model and effects on the flight performance. You are not shooting that many rounds into an FW-190 and then just having it helicopter up to you in War Thunder because of the “unrealistic” black wing root mechanic that causes massive loss of lift. Which is what the OP was complaining about before in 2023.

So I dont understand FW-190 suffers by the fact that you need only 1 20mm gun to destroy planes or it also overperforming because has 4-6 overperforming 20mm guns?

Because of control damping you would need a few fraction of stick control to have your guns on target, but often the time needed for this process allowed the enemy Yak to turn in and fire a few shot. In current DM, it just take 1-2 hits from 20mm FIT to break the wing of 190, while MG151/20 M-shell does little to Yak’s composite wood, where often lead to fuze malfunction. What it usually happen would be both fighters mutually cancelled out in a head-on, or yaks succeed with its equally lethal gun power and pulls away.

Yes and it is issue of American all .50 design where even planes with 4 20mm (N1K2 for example) armament weighted less than 6 .50 on F6F and could create much more damage than .50. Then US understood this issue and started equipping Navy planes with 2 20mm and then full 4 20mm. Army is stuck in a reverie about .50 even on the F-86. I think they wanted to create .60 and because of that didn’t changed to 20mm guns but it still means they used .50 so long what was mistake

If you ever read comments from N1K2 pilots such as Honda Minoru and Iwashita Kunie, their statements prefer more on US 6x50cal armament. In actual combat, Japanese 4x20mm armament had less effectiveness than expected, often damage the US aircraft but not fully bring it down. Where you also see Applegate’s F4U-1D cancelled out with Muto Kaneyoshi’s N1K2 in the head-on.

Blacken wing-root by a single 50cal fire was removed around 3 years ago. Currently unless the fuel tank in the wing-root gets “explosive ignition”, 50cal would need accumulation of damage to blakc out the flight model.

In reality, there were cases 50cals to tear up the entire wing upper surface in a few shots, so it may not be wrong to get that modelled. Just been annoying to get one-shot black out wing-root in a defensive roll, so base on game experiences I would agree to have it canceled.

That info is outdated, MG151/20 Mineshell is currently the best 20mm round against plywood and probably the only one that doesn’t fail to fuze against it anymore. It was updated in Line of Contact.

2 Likes

No it wasn’t. I just flew 190 for the last month and while MG-151 worked well for most allied planes, it still struggle against Yaks in some instances.

You misunderstood my statement.

If you read OP of this thread he spends a lot of time complaining about how black wing root makes his plane unflyable because he loses 1/3 of lift. The fact that this can happen with a few .50 cals is why planes can’t helicopter into you after massive damage in the same way they can in Il-2.

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Blacked wing root works differently for different aircraft. For instances, I can still dogfight with a black wing root on the one-side with an F4F, the plane was still controllable. While on the F6F, a red wing section would directly threw you into an unrecoverable flat spin.

There’s definitively planes that can still fight with a blacked wing-root. Furthermore, it has to do with damage overflow from the fuselage, as I’ve said the fuselage DM is linked with wing-root, and with a fuselage taking too much damage, it can get transferred to wing root and cause a wing breakage. This actually responsible for a lot of plane ripping from cannon fire.

There’s a new aircraft I.A 58 with a different damage model that its fusleage unlinked with wing-root, and with stabilizer made of steel this thing is a blackhole for absorbing damage, compared with other plane with similar parts HP.

I would consider it better for the fuselage damage model to link with control cable, pilots and engine instead of wing-root, to have more realistic gun kill effects, instead of monotonic wing ripping.

So it is more local issue of wood covers than common gun issue

Yes I didn’t read it as I didn’t read absolutely all memories comments and etc and it shows the common issue of it - it is only people’s opinion which may depend on a huge number of factors. For example there is memories where pilot just destroyed US fighter with cannons in short burst. Is it really useful to show all aspects? I doubt

And another issue - how many people so many opinions. There always can be opinion which argue with previous.

Same as with comments there is issue with individual cases. Like there is a footage with returned Zero which had like 6-10 holes in close place on wing. Does it mean that .50 was non effective against zero? No, it is just case where fuel tank was not hitted (to be fact there were early Zeroes who also was returning to the base with hitted fuel tank but anyway)

Let me explain - for question of damage the “comments” is not really useful and full way to understand all data correctly and instead statistic should be used. And no, not that statistic of battle result but damage test made in laboratories and etc because only it let show correct way of weapon effectiveness

If we will use only comments and battle records (which is also more a comments of battle) I would remind out argue about Japanese fuel tanks fire extinguisher systems. There are memories of Japanese pilots saved with this system (like G4M2 which gor heavy damage by ship AA and 4 fuel tanks were extinguished by system) there are official thanks to the developers and recognition of the effectiveness of the system. Does it all means that fire extinguisher system was absolutely effective? If use only records and comments (especially only available and absolutely not all) - yes. But afaik it is not a strong proof for it.

Meanwhile tests of this system which showed that fuel tank will be extinguished in 95% chance after getting 13mm incendiary round - yeah it is quite useful data.

It is what I would like to encourage - to try to delve into the issue from a technical and statistic/tests point of view and find as many sources on this topic as possible (not just stuck with several) because it is the only way this topic will be really useful.

And returning to the .50 cal, does it mean that US Navy did mistake by changing armament to the 20mm guns? Especially, you more than me know that Navy fought mostly against Japanese planes while Army flew at both frontlines but mainly in Europe.
Can I use it as a proof that Japanese planes were more protected than German one?

When I use comments from memoirs, interrogations, and interviews, I am not trying to claim that a single personal account can determine the whole conclusion. My point is more limited: these accounts can show that 4 × 20 mm armament did not have universally persuasive superiority in the eyes of every pilot. In other words, it was not automatically or absolutely superior to its counterpart arrangements, such as 6 × .50 cal, due to the amount of conterexamples exist.

Of course, individual memories and combat accounts have limitations. A single case should not dominate the conclusion. But the same also works in reverse: a few examples of cannon fire destroying an aircraft quickly do not prove that 20 mm armament was always overwhelmingly superior in practice. These sources are useful when they show that real combat effectiveness was more conditional and more complicated than a simple “20 mm is always better than .50 cal” argument.

The U.S. Navy’s move toward 20 mm guns should also be understood in context. Much of the demand came from front-line complaints that .50 cals were less effective for ground attack, especially against AA gun positions, small ships, and de-gased parked aircraft. That does not necessarily mean the .50 cal was considered inadequate for air-to-air combat. In fact, .50 cals remained highly effective in A2A shooting as quoted in the same report asking for 20mm. For example, in the case of late F6F-5N aircraft equipped with 20 mm guns, pilots often preferred to switch the 20 mm guns off during air-to-air combat and use them mainly for ground or ship strafing.

In that sense, the argument that Japanese aircraft must have been more protected than German aircraft because the U.S. Navy adopted 20 mm guns is weak from the start. Late-war Navy interceptors intended to counter kamikazes, such as the F4U-4 and F8F-1, still used .50 cal guns, with the F8F-1 even carrying only 4 × .50 cal. At the same time, the USAAF had already standardized the M8 API round in the ETO from 1943, while the Navy continued using earlier .50 cal belt compositions until March 1945. These differences make a direct “Navy chose 20 mm, therefore Japanese aircraft were tougher” conclusion untenable.

So the adoption of 20 mm guns by the Navy was not simply proof that .50 cals had failed as fighter armament. It was also driven by a broader mission requirement, especially the need for better destructive effect against ground and naval targets, so it was adopted first by SB2C, not by VFs.

Likewise, U.S. Navy 20 mm guns were not a silver bullet either. Admiral DeWitt Clinton Ramsey reportedly believed that the F4U-1C would “shoot Japs into a million pieces,” but the combat cases I mentioned earlier suggest a more mixed picture. Even an F4U-1C with 4 × 20 mm guns still required consistent aiming to bring down Ki-84s and A6Ms, and in some cases multiple firing passes were still needed.