So it doesn’t have “tons of hp”.
Only bombers got minimal hp increase compared to most aircraft but cannon blast damage has been cranked so high it is redundant.
idk what Loofah is on about? I tested even with AP rounds in P-51C, Me-262, L-39 and A6M3 and there’s no difference except spars sometimes take the blow at the cost of no aerodynamic damage on the L-39
It has tons, but 20mm is so ridiculously over the top it still may not be enough. But MG151/20 pre real shitter couldn’t do much, while it was very effective vs props (,not compared to RS 3.0 guns, it eas just doing good enough for me). RS 3.0 just boosted it A LOT.
Still, jets can take some shots that disassemble props, but it’s nothing reliable because the damage is more random than ever.
Me-262 is not much more resistant than late props. But thing is, L-39 and Me-262 are still tougher than G.56 which used to be an absolute tank. Nowadays “being an absolute tank” means nothing vs a lot of guns anyway, maybe they lowere jet HP in the meantime, hard to tell. I had to hit early jets so damn much I was just running out of ammo, so something was going on. Maybe nowadays it no longer is.
Which also applies to armor, ballistics and belts funnily.
Doesn’t have to be a 30mm
It can be 23mil, 20mil or simply a pair of gunpods
It applies to other models of aircraft
Yak-3P is redundant vs Yak-3, 1 ShVAK leaves no room for improvement for the B-20S and B-20M.
J2M3 and J2M2 are barely different
g.55 serie 0 and g.55 serie 1 are also barely different
J-21A-1 and J-21A-2 where the improved firerate doesn’t matter a lot since both have the same kill time and the base firerate already deals with deflections shots easily.
La-7’s ShVAK pair leaves the La-7B-20’s triple B-20Ss obsolete for the same reason as the J-21A-2
There’s nothing that those small extra firerate mods or extra cannons can help mop up.
The floor is already clean. Why did you bring more brooms?
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Armor is generally inherent to the aircraft and very rarely removable. Guns are too. Belt composition is not.
So it doesn’t matter if you’re using HEF-T instead of HEF, because you cannot select belts that are mostly higher capacity non-tracer HE. You simply expect one of the available belts to work as expected.
You get twice the trigger time with J2M3.
The two extra cannons are on the wings and drastically improve how good it is in head-ons, which accounts for like half of what the average player’s kills.
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So that means I made the mistake of pickin an aircraft with armor?
What about ballistic differences? Can we remove those too?
What about firerate differences? Those too?
Since the average player can’t compete with Japanese props that means the current BRs are 100% deserved? Since average players can’t compete with energy management and game sense.
Maybe BI-1 needs to come down since it has a somewhat high skill floor.
average player skill floor is very low, it is why Japanese props still pull winrate at unresonable BR, low skill floor of those props make it easy to win battles but ignores skill ceilings (AKA how well can you do with them).
A decent pilot will just avoid the headon, Its over for you 90% of the time
headons are a detriment and should be avoided if possible, since it is always a gamble.
Sure if you are super confident you can headon the plane that shoots peas vs yours who has a burst mass of 3 whales, but even a pea will take you down if it lands on your pilot or engine.
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The BI was 6.3 aircraft when it was introduced because ShVAK damage was “realistic” (Still too high by standards of this thread.)
Lolno. Decent pilots shoot in the head-on and roll out of the way of return fire.
Can those be changed? No.
You keep talking about how players are somehow supposed to choose the “good” shells, but that is your counterargument to the fact that you cannot choose which shells to fire?
From a purely statistical POV, yes, since they are not normalizing for individual player performance.
BI is already low.
Head-ons always present the chance for a quick kill that won’t require expending any speed or energy. It is almost always worth firing a few shells, if for nothing else than to get them to dodge too and not just hose you down for free.
Here all the planes with many guns are greatly advantaged. They can simply put more shells in the air.
An neither can TNT equivalent be changed. Why can we make an exception to it then?
You can literally fire an mg151/20 mine round and a ShVAK FI-T round to a bomber’s wing, which should be able to clear the “mg151/20 is just overkill” and you will see both deal almost the same amount of structural damage
And it not super clasified secret but a simple logic exercise.
Why does mg151/20 have so much filler? Because of the extra thin case and removed tracer
Should the extra thin case affect fragmentation? Yes it does, mg151/20 deals concentrated blast damage but that also came at the cost of ballistics
Why does ShVAK and Type 99 have so little filler? Because they prioratize lightweight construction and kinetic impacts, more filler meant thinner cases, which meant lower fragmentation. They also prioratized ballistics a lot more than the german engineers.
They are 2 different doctrines and preferences chemical or kinetic.
But we can’t recieve either for some reason, even if doctrine differences are felt in playstyles of nation to nation.
If the mg151/20’ HCHE round was such a fucking miss why did the so many allies try to copy the doctrine of it? DEFA and ADEN cannons both took inspiration from it, that must mean the few upsides of it were seen in a very positive way.
But if the lower filler and ballistics/kinetic focused FI-T rounds from the Type 99 / ShVAK were such phenomenal weapons, why didn’t they try that route? Why did Soviets inmediatly try to replace their B-20 cannons with lower RPM, weight and ammo counts?
Wait what about +30mm cannons? Easy, first they came as antibomber weapons, bombers are these enormous aircraft, even a Mine round’s blast would be too small to make a noticeable difference, 2 solutions where possible:
more 20mils = more space needed, which meant either more advanced and compact 20mm cannons OR “big plane”, look it’s the birth of the heavy interceptors.
OR
big cannon: a big gun for a big lady, P-39 and YP-38 are examples of the early “bomber problem”, the other ones are the type of “bombers at your doorstep problem”, with Axis powers scramming for those enormous caliber weapons, Mk-108 at first, then Mk-103 /Type 5 when they realized that bombers like to fire back and later on you start to see the 37, 40, 50 and even the never tested 75mm.
So then why did +30mm still exist after WW2? Cold war bombers were an enormous threat, where if one slipped in an entire city would vanish so 2 solutions came up
Either make the 20mm fire absurdly fast, like +1000RPM per cannon fast and with 4000RPM total, (seen more with US aircraft)
OR
Try that but to the 30mm cannons we were making, but it comes at the cost of ammo per cannon, seen with most other nations.
Then cannons fell back as missiles took over and slowly make a comeback as secondary weapons.
But after all this we can see that currently ShVAK/B-20 basically sweeps everycannon but the M3, but not because it has more filler oh no no no, because it simply flies better and has a similar firerate. Which means even if the ShVAK had +20g of TNT it would still fall short to the M3.
Wait why am I even explaining this? If you people oppose this since either you don’t want to bother gaijin by telling it to be a decent developer or simply don’t want to come out of your zone of comfort that is current formulas for damage
Because only 2 cannons recieve a full belt of “good shells”, because those belts had a reason for it.
Im still waiting for my full he-t belt on my hispano 404 or NS-23.
That’s the fucking point, if you’ve ever met a “special” player who recieved a freshly baked BI-1 you’ll know they have a 75% chance of vaporizing themselves on any form of manouver which makes them fly past 600km/h IAS on a dive.
That’s all they are reduced to, that’s the issue
Every other situation a 20mm cannon firing 6g of TNT equivalent at 700 RPM beats.
everybody.
If both are decent they both dodge, what happens to the “firepower focused” aircraft? Completely negated of their non-existent “upside”, because it will never manifest itself outside of 1 scenario.
how nice of you, practically telling me to esentially fuck off because I want the “realistic modular damage” I was marketed with to be actually relevant outside “wings and tails can come off look!”
WT allows for easy manouver that would otherwise be very hard to do without atleast becoming very disorientated in most sims, it streamlines most processes and focuses on getting you to the fight and most importantly, an enormous expanding pool of aircraft to choose.
That’s what WT’s ads promised.
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Many cannons already have more than one HE shell available, with different characteristics, that are not represented meaningfully in any belts.
Non-tracer Type 99 HEF has as much or more HE filler than the other conventional 20mm HE shells.
The answer to both is bombers, and limitations of cannon technology.
Yes, and just like with every other cannon in the history of this game, its time in the sun will pass. It’s in a particularly good spot now but that doesn’t mean it won’t ever change.
AN/M2 and M3, ShVAK, Type 99-1 and -2… that’s five. And you’d lose all tracers for doing that, just like the two american cannons.
And how is nerfing ShVAKs gonna change that?
What issue? You have more guns, you put more shells in the air, your chance of hitting and dealing severe damage in a head-on or a deflection shot is much higher. That’s already enough of an advantage.
Don’t stand in front of cannon fire then. I’d still rather have four cannons instead of just two or one.
And how is that gonna change if due to said firepower they are at even higher BRs where their flight performance is even more worthless?
With “overperforming” cannons they’d be much closer to a BR where they can still be relevant.
I remember some test range photographs showing a Mineshell’s fragments after detonation. Tbh…it looked like its fragmenting quite alot thx to that huge filler + thin walls thing.
While other shells amost didn’t fragment, like shvak 20mm. Low filler, thick walls. I remember reading accounts that pilots complained alot cause of it did not alot damage. Ingame however, its somehow off. The russian one went ingame from worst to best. Great ballistics + great damage.
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Then the plane with more energy or better performance wins if both players are equal? That is the way it has always been. Turning damage to Il-2 levels isn’t going to change that.
Oh you mean like this?
It’s a game and realism doesn’t matter when Germany benefits.
But all of a sudden it needs to be a sim if it benefits Germany.
It is not a sim. It has never been a sim. It is not going to be a sim.
Your suggestions would be widely unpopular if implemented; see reaction to when realshatter / HE damage turned everything into nerf guns.
Which doesn’t matter since the tracer still deals the same structural damage. And in other cannons they all deal the same structural damage, except for german FI-T rounds.
But they made the 37mil for that?
They made the NS-23 because the B-20’s kinetic doctrine was inferior.
And even still in WT you only need firerate and ballistics, if they needed to kill bombers they should just have strapped another B-20 and call it a day.
oh wait, it’s because even the kinetic 20mm had issues with fighter sized targets too!
Outside nations totally only saw the lightweight construction and ballistics on it’s favour. Why did no one praise it for the damage?
Even If I don’t tracers, where is my full he belt on hispano 404, ho-5, oerlikon FF, mg151/20, mg FF, hispano Mk. II, hispano Mk.V, NS-23, ShVAK (early), Mk-103 and the list keeps on if I move up the TT even more, while the cannons with Full explosive belts remain almost the same.
Is not only ShVAKs, you’d know I even want to nerf mg151/20’s damage.
I want proper diference from a shell that puts kinetic over chemical damage and vice versa.
And a proper differece of a 30mil and a 20mil, which currently only mounts to if the enemy plane is a fireball or a chopped up can.
Only 1 scenario, the headon.
The deflection is fixed by 2 20mils instead of 1, which mostly ends in 1000ish RPM total.
Because headons are apparently the lifeline of all matches, thanks I’ll send the firefly FR Mk.Iv to 5.0 because those hispano Mk.Vs are incredible in the headon.
Extra filler and cannons should be felt everytime you squezee the trigger, not on 1 situation
So the heavy fighter loses then?
You know im firing at all nations? Even german 20mil rounds are guilty.
But I suppose the first act you made here was look into statshark and just go “guh, german main retardation I suppose”
Well I suppose since you oh so want an arcadey game and you are willing to kick people out let me show you one where all cannons deal the same damage, the ballistics are all the same and even has modular damage.
And before you complain about it take into account If I want a realistic sim with the same variety as WT I have to look at IL-2 1946, which is perfectly respectable, but even I still fall short on QoL features and still lose on variety.
Or try to buy Il-2 great battles with all expansions for even a fraction of WT’s inventory.
The current sale looks very tempting, same I could say to gunship sequel WW2 because it is free by the way and even supports VR.
But I suppose neither of you care for a number to matter, it’s not like it is supposed to be one of the first numbers you are supposed to look at. Next time We’ll merge FMs since the numbers for those are so difficult to obtain and we know how frustatin it is when your planes just pulls 10 cm short to get a fire solution.
And I can also suppose trying to convince both of you that cranking 20mm damage so much it starts to contradict itself and then just ignore different shell construction shouldn’t be seen as “good” and “improved” is useless.
But you don’t want them to deal the same damage.
Hispano HE has a mere 9g of HE filler and yet a single hit does equivalent damage to red-black to an IL-2’s wing section
even all-metal P-39 would be disabled, on average, after two hits from front or behind
Same place where choosing which HE shells to fire is possible
…and how is nerfing ShVAKs gonna make the BI less powerful, when you’d be removing any chance of it moving up?
They already have enough differences.
More guns greatly helps in deflection shots. In the case of G.55 you remove the possibility of just barely missing the enemy because your only cannon is in the nose, or him flying all his critical components between your wing guns and flying away unscathed.
And it is. Every time I shoot someone in the Shiden, it is immediately obvious the firepower is different from a Zero’s or even Reppu’s.
The damage right now is at its best in years, in terms of gameplay and popularity. So any changes to how cannons work wouldn’t actually change anything, since enemy fighters would still be shot down very quickly.
So it would be largely unnoticeable while introducing the possibility for some number of nations to be unable to play the game fairly due to a cannon bug which will take years to fix.
No thanks.
The only thing I’m somewhat in favor of is returning to the legacy damage system.
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Or just play better? The random Air RB player will be far worse than you are.
Look at the great damage model where I can get shot multiple times by different planes and still win my dogfights. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED IN WARTHUNDER! It would be amazing wouldn’t it?
Nah, G.55 S1 just sucks. 4 MGs, if they all hit with HEF, will mess you up properly anyway, and that single MG151/20 is enough to take down almost anything. Also Bredas have better range than 151/20, not by much, but I’ve landed some 1100m kills with those.
There’s no reason to fly G.55 S1 other than the challenge.
Nose and the driving band and rear area can produce a few fragments, but big filler will basically obliterate the shell in most cases. But some fragments will be there. Thing is, in game shell design is irrelevant, the most important is the type (with FI-T being the best), and only then filler size (hence the Hoe-5 shell type is bad and only can rival other 20mms in modern guns with 12+g fillee, as that type is nerfed in damage).
In other words - the game is designed so HEI gets nerfed damage-wise so with 28g TNT equivalent it still deals less damage than Shvak.
Does it make any sense?
Of couese not.
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And as many have said earlier in the thread, this is exactly what you guys want - the ability to make big mistakes and not get punished at all for it.
Isn’t it how you guys always been enjoying when fighting Allied planes? Taking bursts after bursts of 50cals while not suffering anything to lose from the flying charactristics, then performe reversal and claim it a “skill victory”. Lmao
Now we just want a fair competetion with 20mm been adjusted to historical level, just as 50cals been done. And you became hysterical about it. Don’t give me wrong for keep abusing your J6Ks in battles and just wishing to “make big mistakes and not get punished at all for it”.
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Then the plane with more energy or better performance wins if both players are equal? That is the way it has always been. Turning damage to Il-2 levels isn’t going to change that.
Any gun DM from 2017, 2019, 2021 and 2023 Q4 shall fit the requirement for more realistic aircraft gun fighting and gun damage. No necessary to turn the game into IL-2 GB level where planes are still in one piece after smashing into the ground at 200 knots.
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