Talking about 0.25, 0.5 or 1 second of fire is really hard to visualise in my head, so I threw this together
So using the Spitfire IX as an example with twin Hispanos thats:
0.25 seconds = 5 rounds
0.5 seconds = 10 rounds
1 second = 20 rounds
(not including the 4x 7.7mm also firing)
What one MK108 30mm mineshell does to a spitfire
Stop coping
actually there are reports that single allied 20mm hit had ~10% chance to score a single hit kill.
We can perhaps assume that those numbers should be slightly higher for mine shells
Similar yes, identical - no. Especially vs a wing spar it most likely makes a big difference whether shell is going fast or relatively slow, because the difference in kinetic energy between 650m/s and 400m/s relative velocity is huuuge.
Of course for MG151/20 kinetic energy is not that important, because the huge filler already provides tons of chemical energy - but it will still benefit from it, just to a lesser extent.
Wing spars, engine and pilot would be the most affected by kinetic energy.
Why would anyone “start coping”? Getting 1-shot by 330g shell with 100+g TNT equivalent (shells we have in-game have too little PETN BTW, German docs had some errors and Gaijin likes to ignore that some things don’t add up) is pretty normal. We’re talking about getting half of your tail removed by a single Shvak hit, or losing wing to 2.
if we use Air Target belt for every 10 rounds fired 2 will be tracer w/o explosive and 4 will be SAPI with much smaller HE charge.
with T,HE,SAPI,HE,SAPI belts and 5 rounds fired from 2 guns, best outcome is 3 HE and 2 SAPI while the worst case is 2 SAPI, 2T and 1HE
Wich does not happen but ok.
Also, german docs have errors? You evaluate that how?
It came to you in a dream ?
What is this gibberish?
Welcome to ignore list.
EDIT: if you mean how do I evaluate if German docs have errors? By f.e. making a technical drawing and using some basic maths to check whether 0,36g incendiary filler in 15mm AP-I is reasonable. It is not.
White Phosphorous density is 1,82g/cm^3. Lets subtract 15% due to not perfect filling, and any errors stemming from not knowing the dimensions perfectly (but I think if anything, the volume is on the low side, since the capsule wall thickness in his model is too high). We get 0,7g of filler, which is roughly twice as much as indicated in the document, and this is basically worst case scenario, the most likely value probably is somewhere around 0,8g, damn, even 0,86g would be possible and this would also explain the 0,36g error - someone wrote an 8 that was for whatever reason not fully closed and it looked like 3 to the guy who was responsible for documents.
Or that PETN core is way too big to have the tiny size indicated by some documents (3g) and Gaijin themselves (again, basic maths will tell you that, based on drawings and cross-section of the shell you can find over the net)
As clearly visible, the core is more like 10+g (it’s over 7 cm^3, and PETN + wax density should be conservatively around 1,5g/cm^3) than 3g. It’s simple maths, since shell dimensions are readily available, and PETN density is too (I know they are using 90% PETN, 10% wax to stabilise the explosive) - the below one is for shell dimensions, I know this is a training round, but the body is exactly the same:
strong text
Shvaks totally demolish tail with 1 shell, several parts black of orange. 2 shells and basically entire elevator and horizontal stab are non-functional and plane is gone.
1 shell makes large part of the wing black. Hit it twice (with 1 Shvak and 2 Berezins in the nose or 2 Shvaks - easy job) and it’s gone.
This was my 1st attempt at firing Shvak in protection analysis, plane is absolutely crippled, entire vertical stabiliser - gone, half of elevator - gone, half of horizontal stab - gone, the other half - no lift. This plane may make it to base and land with some skill, unless he tries to dive :D
Every gun with RS is overperforming. Including MG131 which hits almost as hard as 20mm. Tails shoulld get their HP pool boosted, cannons should be brought down to MG131 level, MG131 should be further nerfed to deliver damage that makes sense for a HMG, not some magical wunderwaffe.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/987412817336483935/1136935159187378306/image.png
I cant put it into words how much actual brain damage this Community has.
We cried MONTHS for a realshatter fix , guns were absolut useless
Then there was the fkx, and some people reall feel the urge to grief it because they cant bomb anymore or whatever is there reason to do something like that
Actual 20mm damage but with a twist
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1046211902784671824/1136946251087224934/twjSRG6.jpg
The plane was under full control the whole time and the pilot landed without incident, his only injury was shrapnel in his feet that went under the seat armor. Cannons are far more effective than MG’s but only if the ammunition was reliable, the German 20mm ammunition used in the BoB was fitted with a graze fuse that was too sensitive which is the reason the three hits on the Spit detonated on the outer skin.
And this is the Potter of a 20mm HE-I shell
Dont ruin props again
Edit: i was typing with gloves on not a good idea, and the damage in protection analysis does not fit the damage in a game
they were BY DESIGN set to detonate before round fully passes the skin.
Also - those tests are for MG151 not MG FF/M used during early BoB.
Thirdly - I posted photographic examples of ShVAK or Japanese 20mm (exact kind unknown) above as well
Take ShVAK that is for 109 wing used as test target. You see massive damage that came from 5-7 hits.
In game ShVAKs have quite substantial chance to rip a wing with single hit which should, if happened at all, be extremely rare occurance.
I’ve also posted test results that US did using their own 20mm ammo (not German) and their result was that there is about 6% chance of single 20mm hit producing instant-kill with most likely cause being pilot-snipe. Chance to score 1-hit-kill due to structural damage with 20mm round was ca. 2-3%
In WT we see that much more often than that.
That’s not the aim of this thread.
I am not advocating return to old system where cannons did way to small damage.
I totally agree that what we have now is closer to reality than what we had in the past but I still think that GJ over-done it and guns should be tuned back a bit to find that realism sweet-spot
Damage in protection analysis fits damage in game quite accurately.
F.e. my shots doing next to nothing vs F89B, especially 0 damage vs fuel tanks and making wing parts ever, ever so slightly yellow is exactly what happens in protection analysis when fired at the same modules.
Because damage calculation in game is fairly simple:
That’s wrong.
They were designed to explode inside the wing. Of course everything depends on shell speed and angle, the slower the shell goes, the less it’ll penetrate without exploding.
Finding this may be extremely difficult, but I remember there were 2 types of fuses, 1 was setup to make shell explode 20cm in, the other - some longer distance.
That is not true, also you set HE-T and FI-T even , wich are not the same
And also not the same in the way they do damage
as shown 20mm m-patrone have AZ 1502 fuze.
http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_3/Chap06/Fig_552.htm
EDIT:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/germanWWIIFuzes.php#2cm
1502 - delay: none
It would make 0 sense to have MG151/20 M-geschoss explode OUTSIDE of an aircraft, sine that would limit the damage to a hilarious extent - shrapnel to the sides? Gone. Explosion blowing out wing panels more effectively? Nah, lets instead disperse the energy into thin air.
chemical fuzes have some time to act so “instant” does not mean absolute 0s
What it means is “as fast as possible” and that it does not artificial delay for example by using slower reacting chemicals, etc
Well, it’ll be pretty hard to do, but I remember distinctly that they have changed the fuse to slower-working at one point because the shells exploded too soon when fired at longer range. But this will require some serious digging.
Anyway, the point is - it should penetrate before exploding and the fuse delay we have in game right now makes sense.
Fuse sensitivity we have in game on the other hand is setup so the shell passes through Soviet aircraft without exploding and dealing damage.
in game it’s set to 0.3 which I understand to be 0.3m but RL evidence suggest explosion on impact as shown by burn marks on the outer skin
These may have been as well FI-T shells hence the “burn marks”. We have very limited info on these and trusting it blindly may not be the smartest thing to do.
There’s no reasonable reason to make the shells explode outside of the airframe.
