The accuracy of mouse aim and range that can be achieved in mouse aim is vastly different. Loofah is RB player so his impression of damage is going to be significantly different than yours.
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of course RB accuracy is much different.
In RB very high deflection shots are very common while such high lead in SB usually is reserved for advanced players since you can’t see enemy under your nose a lot of the time.
In RB it’s also easier to avoid being hit since you have markers and radar.
All that combined means that for RB ability to score one-hit-kill is vastly more important than in SB where it’s much easier to stay on enemy’s tail for longer and pump them full of bullets.
But regardless if we are talking RB or SB. Regardless if you prefer one playstyle vs the other.
We are discussing realism of damage dealing.
As I mentioned - even if you get hit by total accident by a round not even aimed at you that missed it’s target, fly 1km and hit you - you should still receive realistic damage.
Damage mechanics will affect what playstyle people chose but people’s preference to playstyle should never affect how damage mechanics is implemented.
I am strongly against making gun super damaging or the opposite, planes super spongy, just because it’s more balanced.
As a sim player my main concern here is realism and I think that it is important to many RB players as well.
You are using current MG.151 as being above the upper limit for what damage should be done for 20mm rounds. What you are advocating for is effective to nerfing all cannons to below bugged realshatter levels.
Where is post advocating for 50 cal API-T and all 50 cal ammo to be nerfed into oblivion?
Why not go play IL-2 GB or DCS then? Those games are great at inconsistent damage modeling. Leave WT as fast time to kill air quake.
It’s totally different game and I prefer WT over IL2 and DCS for various reasons.
For example I find IL2’s FMs to be less realistic than WT’s
I am advocating guns doing realistic damage. Nothing more.
And what this have to do with cannons? if you feel 50cals are wrong feel free to create your own thread.
If you provide sufficient proof I will be happy to support your initiative.
I am advocating guns doing realistic damage. Nothing more.
you are not aware of what “realistic damage” is.
which is why I am using documents from people who do.
This is exactly why I am using MG151 as proof - I have documents for their effectiveness and I’ve shared those.
Perhaps they are guns closest to realism but they are still not realistic.
What is your counter-argument here?
You haven’t done what you claimed you have done.
La-5 attacked by Fw-190A-8 (link have timestamp).
it’s impossible to say if it was 20mm or 13mm but size of explosions suggest 20mm hits
It’s possible it was mix of 13mm and 20mm hits but I’ve counted 8 explosions at least.
no info on damage but given theatre and date it’s likely that this is 20mm HE:
B-24 hit by Japanese 20mm:
Spitfire P8342 UZ-N is mk IIb and given plane’s history photo was likely taken around 1941-42 and damage was sustained over Britain
context unknown but looks like some of those holes are cannon (as in not MG but explosive rounds) damage
most likely dead-astern hit from 20mm cannon:
unlikely to be flak due to where damage is located and who parts are peeled.
Unlikely to be 30mm as tests hitting spitfire wing with MK108 shows whole wing just blown open across the full width so even if round fuzed on trailing edge the back spar would not have survived it.
Also unlikely to be MG damage due to how extensive it is.
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Highly agree. Having to spam a lot of your cannon rounds to down a plane is quite frustrating and annoying in terms of gameplay. It also gives more capability to planes with already low ammo counts like a lot of the Soviet props.
No one wants you to “spam” your cannons. Just make them reasonable. If one needs 4 M-geschoss to rip a wing of P-47, it should take 6-7 Shvak or Ho-5 shells (at close range) and about 8 at long, and for Hispano/Type 99/AN/M3 depending on the range 4 at close, 6 at long.
Right now MG131 will rip a wing off with 6-8 bullets. Which is ridiculous. And Shvak will do that with 2 shells.
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You are aware that at least for hispanos (600 rounds/min) that you’d fire 20 rounds in a 1 second burst (from most spitfires armed with twin Hispanos). So 4-6 rounds is 0.25 seconds of fire. That is essentially what we have right now. When you consider that most belts have only tracers every 4th round or so. Most of the time ,your burst is invisible and it only looks like you fire 1/4 the rounds.
Im guessing its the same for every single weapon you mentioned. The difference between 2 shells and 10 shells is almost impossible to see and the more cannons it has the greater the amount of fire within a tiny window.
This I think is the main reason why the MG151/20 feels so much weaker. Not because its doing less damage per round, but that you often have less guns. Can’t comment on all aircraft, but the Bf-109 only has a single MG151/20. Its immediately at a major disadvantage to the Spitfire which has 2x Hispanos. Whilst the MG151/20 has a slightly better fire rate, you still on average fire half the number of rounds per second, and when it takes usually no more than a second or 2 to secure that kill. That difference feels massive
chemical rounds (aka HE, etc) does similar damage at all ranges
I’d say that you shouldn’t be punished so severely (with a death) when someone just pitches up for you in a suicidal move to get guns on you or snipes you from 2km+ and hits you ONCE and you die for it. A single 20mm shell should never be able to take out a plane, even to the engine - I believe there’s a NACA report on it.
Before the last update that fixed RealShatter, it was kinda nice being able to do tiny mistakes and not get instantly removed from the match due to them. But also it was terrible when I’m sitting on someone’s ass, unloading two Type 99 Model 2s into them, and they just take dozens of shells to kill.
I want it to be more consistent, but with less damage than what it is now. 8-10rds of 20mm in the fuselage or wing roots should be a kill, assuming you don’t hit the pilot. Of course IRL ammo performance has to matter, and Mineshells on MG151/20s and FF/Ms should do more than ‘regular’ 20mm HE.
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I don’t think i’ve ever been killed by someone sniping from 2km+ nor do I entirely think its actually possible with a huge amount of sheer luck.
However:
That is only 0.5 seconds of fire from a Spitfire MkIX (and most spitfires armed with twin Hispanos)
For most fighters that is somewhere between 0.5-1 second of weapons fire. From what I’ve experienced so far, this is what we have in game currently, or there abouts. Its really hard to tell the difference between 1 round hitting and 10 rounds because it happens so fast.
I do think an airframe damage model overhaul would help. The game doesnt model a hole in the wing, it just models the entire wing as damaged for example. So damage might be “magnified” but I think short of artificially nerfing weapons, so that it takes 2-3 seconds for “gameplay reasons” I think they are about right.
From my research, most fighters rarely survived more than a few hits from cannons