You could win the whole game before anything had a chance to kill you.
I was aiming too low. The tail still did not come off.
And these are the same guns that have been claimed to snap wings and tails off “instantly”.
Not as fast but yesterday in the J5N I was ending games very quickly on tickets after the initial engagements by just taking out ground targets. And I was doing that mostly by myself.
They’ll die if they do as always and just rush forward like a Wyvern.
They’ll need a page from the slower pair of strike aircraft, see where the enemy runway is and where it is pointed at and estimate a “cone” of possible enemy presence (you need to account for sideclimbers).
It’s like when you see a B-17 just fly (or even dive) towards a base and complain they didn’t come back, while they skipped the steps of “don’t call too much attention” and “try to climb”.
Also means that if you need to kill strike aircraft for a task you can put yourself in their shoes and try to intercept them, protecting your objective and saving tickets but delaying your presence early game your team furball comes down to the deck.
“Only small caliber” because we are missing the other guy, even less penetration but in a lot more numbers.
There aren’t a lot of plates that can stop calibers like 20mm or american 12.7mm unless very far. That’s the “AP” part, in reality they are more or less made to survive those small caliber weapons and below, What’s below small caliber? Fragmentation
Spoiler
and also round tumbling but you really don’t want to recode how different aircraft skins behave and would make stuff completely “inmortal” unless your armament literally evolved from basically an automatic anti-tank weapon or have pen values near one.
Currently not really present on a significant way, german 15mm and 20mm FI-T are outliers.
Does it exist outside of these? Yes, in case you wonder what 7.7 IAI does, it spawns 3 fragments that travel very short barely visible distances.
That’s because, outside of 20mm which use some random fixed value, caliber only determines amount of fragmentation and the distance it travels (If you shoot a tiny tim or uncle tom at a plane you’ll see how the fragments reach all of furthest places on the plane), also only fragments that hit something are shown, that’s why if you shoot an enormous rocket at a wing tip you’ll see a fan of fragmentation instead of a sphere.
Of course our only outlier is the 20mm, that produces 3 fragments that automatically black out a section unless it just happens to be a Japanese shell, which case it has a random chance to make an red-orange tone.
23mil does the same but now can spawn actual fragments that fly out and hit some random small stuff.
30mm goes all the way and spawns crapton of fragmentation.
(Note that calibers above 30mm, AP or Not, will cause fuel tank detonations on direct contact and kill airplanes instantly, even happens on the 57mil mosquito).
It really isn’t, it’s the same method + more firerate, they still have a difference with cannons since to “one-shot” you need multiple to land at the same place (to be fair M2s do the same), could it benefit from fragmentation? 50/50, you can reach unprotected vitals more easily without having the skin stop you but you will still need AP. I think ho-103’s is ok at the moment, maybe it is powerful because it is compared to Breda SAFATs (750 RPM), but those are more of a API-T belt, the explosive rounds on it are bad even on paper, and people forget the Berenzin’s 996RPM + 50/50 IAI and API-T belts indeed have explosive rounds. Those are the ones that shred you apart and behave like almost-cannons.
All of these split wings are because spars aren’t hard to miss and arent very durable, not helped by bluetooth connections magically transfering damage from spar to spar.
Split tails is because tails are too fragile, and just need “1 step”, unlike wings that need both spar and wing section broken.
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this doesn’t really work if a single fighter chooses to kill you, unless ground units were widely spread around the map you’ll always have this problem
even then you’ll very likely be spotted and someone is free to throw away all their altitude to kill you
The .50BMG is actually much more prone to tumbling and then nonpenetrating because it uses a boat-shaped projectile instead of one shaped like a tank shell (most cannon AP rounds). .50BMGs have really bad penetration loss when hitting at an angle.
Armor does protect against HE pretty well, the issue is that you can’t cover an entire plane with armor. Shoot at the side of an IL-2 where the armor is and you’ll see HE shells do very little.
Many have claimed they hit as hard as cannons. Especially over on the .50cal cope thread.
But against that P-40 and the Tempest earlier, it’s much more convenient to bring AP when shooting from behind which also results in a kill sooner than detaching the tail. That’s my point.
I didn’t, only case where this is true is the Berenzin because it has a random chance to black out a section.
That’s gun converge doing it’s job and landing you 8 explosive rounds in 1 place.
Speaking of, having 4x 12.7mm do make you feel a difference in most scenarios compared to x2 12.7mm.
Unlike 20mm which are simply limited to better chance in headons.
Blast sure, but it is in VERY but VERY specific situations, and that “overpressure” bit can still be blocked if it simply lands 30cm away. And we are still missing the other guy, which will make it realize that your plane lacks basic armor or doesn’t have armor plate on the side.
If I shoot the Il-2 in the wing root with a 20mm I simply snap it off without a sweat.
In case of a 12.7mm like the ho-103 it also dissapears, except now you need to hammer it a bit more.
Both cases armor never came into play.
If it fragmentates instead of dealing fixed section damage, armor will give you a notice via, blocking the oil systems and pilot, you will however probably knock out the aileron from that side and destroy the flaps. And it will make you use AP to atleast kill the gunner and fuel tank (protected by 12mm plate), and have time to calmly kill the tail control cables (which can only be hit with AP, but now fragments can also reach it), simply blow off the elevators and kill the radiator (armor only on the sides and bottom).
But if you shoot at a dude on a P-40 (like you did), if you hit the wing root, and even side fuselage you spray the pilot, fuel tank AND engine (remember IL-2 got armor around the engine and fuel tank too).
But the 9mm plate will protect pretty well if you try to shoot at the tail section (control cables are pretty tough and elevators won’t come off in 1 shell anymore I forgot to mention).
But if you meet an (single engine) opponent with no armor, like since we are playing Japan I suppose, we’ll meet a 109 Emil.
“But it does have backseat armor” you say? But look closely and you can see the fuel tank completely exposed on early variants, so if you fire even explosive rounds at the tail of an early 109, you will cause a leak, which even if self sealing it won’t withstand so much hammering and will cause a nasty leak and even fire on the only fuel tank it has.
And in case you wonder what happens at the wing root, same as P-40, pilot, engine, fuel tank BUT now also radiator.
3 different aircraft, all of them with at least backseat armor, 3 different reactions to the same weapons.
Currently they are all the same if you carry one 20mm or two.
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News with plans to increase bombers survivability and still no post about it here
Weird
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Bomber are more tilted towards issues with their damage models.
The enormous modules barely have extra health but are x10 more easy to hit.
But yeah bombers do pop up every once in a while and are affected by current cannons.
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They are pretty small guns.
As specific as the placement and coverage of aircraft armor
IL-2 has armor in the wings?
I don’t know how much different the AI IL-2 damage models are, but the pilot died anyway.
Did not protect the pilot at all.
How does this change the fact that when I shoot such a plane, it is shot down in a short time? In fact I hit a few early 109 Es very recently and they either died to engine fire, pilot, or a broken wing. In all cases they came down with little effort.
I want you realize that a 20mm proyectile isn’t worlds apart, it is just a tiny bit bigger than your thumb, maybe a bit longer. It is a monster caliber if you fire it at a person, but aircraft are big, bigger than you expect
Or even a super small Bi-1
Or even just a run of the mil “small” single engine aircraft like the bf-109.
Cannon doesn’t mean it is a flinging a 50mm round towards a plane.
1- Early aircraft engines are very fragile and easy to ignite.
2- AP does it job and pens the backseat armor.
3- happens because spars are incredibly fragile.
please read
I specifically said taking into account fragmentation is implemented properly and thus we are firing explosive rounds. Fragmentation flies in random directions, it can fly to the side of the Il-2 and meet armor or in case of a bf-109 or P-40, meet the pilot, engine or fuel tank.
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due to square law, a 20mm shell has almost 3x the frontal area of a 12.7mm one
And mostly ermpty.
…But how would your proposed fragmentation model change how quickly aircraft are shot down?
And we are shooting at a target the size of a small shed
cannons are big, but planes are even bigger.
Caudron C.714 is pretty small plane btw
Remeber 20mm proyecticles are the size of around your thumb and leave a hole around the size of your face.
That means nothing, because the airframes exist, that WT shows empty space doesn’t mean it’s only the skin that holds the plane in 1 piece, there are frames, longerons, stringers, bulkheads and the list keeps on.
…
Can you read? If you want to kill them now you actually need to hit somewhere vital and ensure armor doesn’t stop you. I posted examples and all.
But even if you land it somewhere non-vital your opponent will be crippled in some way and you will earn an additional advantage.
People assume this equals an undamaged plane, This P-38 has been tanked into the performance wayyyy below that of a stock plane.
We have been talking for a week atleast and all I see from your side is complete amnesia so you can reset the argument, and that’s taking into account im the “clueless” one here.
Kill times will vary depending on:
What 20mm you have? What number you have? What opponent you are shooting at?What armor profile it has? What size is your opponent?(fragmentation travels a set distance) Where are you shooting at? From what angle are you shooting from? What shells did you load?
Currently is is:
“Did you land a yellow shell?”
“Yes.”
"Did it land on the tail or main wing section? "
“Yes.”
“The opponent’s Wing/Tail broke off”
“Wow”
Same procedure for +1000 aircraft with barely any difference
You end up with “upgrades” being outclassed in 90% of regards compared to their earlier versions, either by being at a worse BR or simply perfomance because it was tanked by extra weigth, which both can happen at the same time in the worst case scenario. And the best case it can happen is that you only end up with an entire face of an “upgrade” being left in the shadows because it will barely if ever come into play.
The only way you can defend this current model is that you way that
“I just want the more convinient model to rank up quickly and play with the shiny jets”
or
“I just want the more convinient model to unlock the CAS for my tank battles lineup”
Which it just says “I don’t care for cannons”, meanwhile I try to twist my model to I don’t leave nations like the USSR with the most sour 20mm known to man, I try to keep down german aircraft by making so the dodge the inminent nerf my rework will do, I basically try to level each one out.
Meanwhile the balance of today is “firerate above 700 ✅, lots of range✅, more than 70% yellow belt✅”
What about small difference in caliber? Fillers? AP performance? Number of 20mm cannons? hell even shells within the same cannon just stomp each other, The Type 99’s more powerful explosive shell is no better than the tracer/explosive one and only the latter one has a 100% yellow belt.
Even climbs away into classes like strike aircraft (faster ones just outclass armored ones completely), bombers (same case) and even SPAA (who would actually use a low tier +25mm SPAA for actual SPAA duties?)
2 Likes
Simple question.
Is this acceptable damage from ShVAK and Berezin combo against a P-51? Yes or No? Why or why not?
Is this too much damage for .50 cal incendiary rounds? How many people in the thread would be happy with this?
Somewhere vital… Like the wings keeping them in the air at all? The tail ensuring they don’t just nose up/down out of control? Why do you think, like KillaKiwi, that there’s absolutely nothing to shoot at in tails and wings?
It can still fly and shoot at people, therefore it is not shot down. Letting an enemy get away like this just means you’ll have to fight him again later.
Half the time I don’t even know what you’re talking about. It makes no sense.
Cool, I want a refund on my “yellow shells”.
If one shell is enough, why did 8 do damage all the way to the engine and yet he didn’t die? The same shells you say have more damage than non-tracer HEF are mixed in there too.
Such as? More often than not the firepower is worth it.
So the current state of the game. lol
Plenty of cannons are excellent without those.
How would you feel a “small difference” when the guns you’re talking about fire at 700rpm or more? You think it was one shell that hit you when it was actually 2, 3, or 4.
More relevant against tanks since almost no planes have enough armor to stop cannons
Which as I’ve shown is less desirable than Universal. That Tempest could have just flown away if I was using Tracers.
Here’s your yellow shells at work. And these are the 23mm with much higher damage than 20mm.
If you mean the spar yes, the wing will take punishment otherwise.
You assume aircraft skin is the main way an aircraft supports it’s structure, aircraft skin just provides the aerodynamics needed for lift, it doesn’t suffer “structural failure” just loss of lift, we assume each 20mm makes a hole of around the size of a human head then it simply need more than 5 shells.
You think 2 of these will split a plane in half?
Because I told “cannon =/= enormous cavern made upon detonation” and “aircraft structures are help up by the airframe and not by skin”
See how you need to destroy a vast number of
and losing lift at wingroot doesn’t mean it needs to snap off and nullify lift from the wing tips too.
It also means you let get away, drag is no joke, it slow down your plane to a crawl and is only made worse the lower you fly.
If you are shot somehow by such a beaten up plane that mean you went into a head-on while having an advantage OR you simply didn’t notice a slow moving plane crawl behind you and shoot you down.
If you really couldn’t stop him then that means the opponent used it’s armor as a last trumpcard OR he unironically planned it’s escape route well because the only way it can escape is that it runs to it’s team.
Transition 20mm damage to be more similar to a beefed up 15mm damage.
Will lead to make aircraft more distinct and model upsides normally nullified because 2 20mm shells aimed at enormous “weakspots” will nullify them.
And also calculate the amount of fragments based on filler compared to caliber
More filler = thinner walls and thus less fragmentation, however if you land it near or on top of an aileron, spar, rudder, elevator, fuel tank, etc. (And also it won’t black out stuff, orange red should be max so mg151/20 doesn’t become a broken mess)
Less filler = thicker case, more fragmentation, it won’t do as much individual damage to afforementioned modules but it can land really far away and still hit them. (Made so ShVAK doesn’t become ass but will put in it’s place)
Then AP will be more relevant because armor will stop explosive shells that land in your tail (they won’t cut it off as easily anymore) or even on your wing root if your plane has armor on the sides.
You posted your proof with 12.7mm but with 20mm that P-40 would have been split in 2 long ago.
I say yellow shells because they all deal the same damage.
hispano 404’s hei is the same as hei-t despite the first one having a 33% increase in explosive filler, literally no difference.
outside of mg151/20 which deals 1 extra tone of red, but only seen if you shoot a bomber.
1- I never said One shell is all you need, you need 2.
2- It’s Japanese, random chance to spoff because formulas are off by some number. Compare Russian 20mm hef to Japanese hef and see it for yourself, hell compare russian 12.7mm IAI with Japanese/Italian 12.7mm hef-t.
3- Only from the directly in the rear, otherwise you just cut the plane apart to pieces.
Which also made aircraft with more than 2x 20mm be merely more redundant in headons and usually suffer from higher BRs because of it.
Makes 20mm eat away at 23mm or 30mm in terms of damage because it doesn’t matter if damages 3 sections instead of one, I just need 1 to be destroyed.
Read below it and see how many other factors you are missing.
And planes that do are simply split in half
also a low AP performance means you need to be closer to your enemy in order to pen their armor or you know, shoot at the deflection shot and either cut both wings off or cut the tail.
Like it is currently, You need to play outside of Japanese TT
So are bombers durable in your definition? Also IL-10 is the only plane with a beffed up tail section and isn’t a bomber. That is the durability a B-17’s, Ki-49’s or Sunderland’s tail has in-case you don’t know.
Also only IL-10 has a tail like that, most Il-2s have normal super weak tails.
Because a BF-110’s tail is weaker, A mosquito’s tail same case but it sometime doesn’t detonate explosive shells, A beaufighter tail is weaker, a Sm.91’s twin boom is weaker and so on.
Wow 1 plane has a special exception where the tail that can survive more than 3 shells!? Revolutionary!!
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Russian testing showed otherwise. Many aircraft could be shot down or rendered unable to keep fighting from one or two hits.
And sufficient loss of lift will put you in a flatspin you won’t recover from. For gameplay reasons we simply remove that whole wing.
And guess what’s right under the skin?
Random matches are not 1v1s I am not losing all my altitude and throwing the match because one guy ate 50 shells
Again, random battles are not 1v1s, there are 15 other players you have to contend with. While heavily damaged I’ve come back around many times to third party an enemy that was busy with a teammate.
so everything dies in 2-3 shots, incredible progress, I agree with this change
Again, I want a refund on my “yellow shells” since that tempest didn’t get vaporized
sure didn’t work on that tempest
ok so why didn’t his tail get vaporized, I was assured it’d happen and when I shoot someone it suddenly doesn’t?
Good thing I have two cannons!
I fired 8. In any combination you can think of, that’s 6x HEF shells and 2x APHE.
It’s almost as if gun damage isn’t as clear cut as you all pretend it to be.
for 95% of prop BRs there are no 30mm cannons worth using and 23mm is present only on 2 nations
Like that tempest?
japan already has crappy AP, look at AN/M2 and Hispano with 38mm AP pen
the only time that is matched is if you take something with Type 5s, which are in… like 3 prop aircraft.
rendered unable to keep fighting =/= enormous structural failure.
It can be stuff like a dead engine.
For gameplay reasons we should not make an entire aspect of aircraft like armor layout, thickness and rounds made to counter said armor take a backseat. To even platforms that mount multiple cannons be left to simply have a better chance to come out with a kill in a headon.
And you also nullify lift from other sections of the wing
oh wait is it because realistically you enter a spin? how about realistically it doesn’t come off?
Airframe, which also covers the whole tail, you would need to go all around the plane and detach way more stuff.
Done by Flak btw
Bombers don’t count? No problemo!
And these are photos with enormous gashes, in most cases you see just a lot of holes.
I never said they need to take 50shells, that’s like if I said solid shot need to spend their entire ammo to kill 1 enemy.
There’s also teamates on your side, maybe if you did realize there’s a person behind each one you would realize you can cooperate with them.
But teamwork is forbidden because “my teamates suck” did you try to add a better tutorial,. Be patient? Talk to them?
Or at least try to protest for better tutorials.
And if you load AP you could probably, LIKE YOU SAID, punch a hole into a pilot and end it.
everything isn’t correct, If you attack an IL-2 or Bf-110 with a bf-109 F-2 you more likely will feel their armor doing it’s job and buying time.
Japanese shells, I told you already, their formulas are messed up. Maybe if you did play more than 5 nations you would know what cannons hit like.
It’s like I said “37mm for tanks SUCK!!!” yet I only touched the ha-go’s/ro-go’s/Ka-mi’s 37mm and skipped the american or german 37mils
So then what happens past that? No change?
“Look I can headon a little better!”
Seriously?
AND??? It’s like I said
“Oh well only Sweden and Italy has the 12.7mm, im sure I can just remove the API-T belt, not a lot of people affected!”
“Oh well only Japan has A6M5s, im sure the rest of the playerbase wouldn’t care if I send them to 5.7!”
oh wait, they are at 5.7, doesn’t that mean the players that rightfully push for it to come down are in the wrong? NO!
23mm NS-23 is used by 21 vehicles, both China and USSR are forced to use it at one point I can also add.
Only Mk-103 and Type 5 are used because they also come with ballistics and come with a firerate above 400RPM, otherwise they fall under the 37mm M10, M4, NS-37, MK-108 and countless many cannons. Literally not 1 benefit, not even damage.
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How many dead engines are you getting from a HE shell to the wing of a single engine plane?
“planes could definitely survive this, look at all these survivors!”
now show us all the ones that got shot down and never returned
This is a Hurricane which was still built like a WW1 biplane and the skin was just fabric
I’m telling you that they took 50 shells
I’m already 3rd partying and baiting enough
And if I don’t hit the pilot? boo womp right? That’s what this is about.
Bf 110 has barely any armor.
Sure seemed to work fine to start this cope thread. Plus, you’re just wrong. The “formulas” are the same.
There’s a much bigger difference between those than Type 99-2 to other 20mms
I’d rather have 4. So does most of the playerbase.
Comparisons to 30mm are functionally irrelevant due to how rare they are. Even IRL they were used and intended to be used against BOMBERS in order to shoot them from greater ranges and still deliver high weight of fire despite low hitrates at those ranges.
23mm was also optimized for use against bombers
Yes, it’s almost as if this was also the case IRL and only extremely few fighters had 37mm guns. It’s almost as if limiting yourself to just 30 or so rounds of ammo is a bad idea. It’s almost as if 99% of fighter on fighter combat and kills were done with guns of 20mm or smaller caliber…
Surely EVERYONE was wrong, every single country, in not putting fat chunks of steel in the form of slow firing cannons in their fighters! It can’t be just me trying to force these terrible guns into roles they never did or could fulfill!
not even the germans were crazy enough to do this, even the very late war dual-caliber MG 213 was still primarily chambered in 20mm
not even the russians were delusional enough to do this, as the 37mm was only used against bombers or very rarely tanks and they stuck with 20mm until it ended
Usually with the tail or wings still attached or close by, which means they didn’t detach mid-air but rather on the collision itself.
And still a lot of crashlanded aircraft because the aircraft was in one piece, they simply lost power or saw the aircraft as imposible to fly back so they simply landed in some field
Venezuelan F-16 shoots down OV-10 Bronco | November 27, 1992 - YouTube
Look an actual 0.5 second burst from a 6000RPM cannon, weird, it really only came down in one piece, maybe it was a severed control cable?
Which supports that aircraft skin doesn’t do the heavy structural work, but rather the multiple inner structures and such.
But did I say I want them to take 50shells?
I mean 90% of the stuff you posted are on A6M5s, no wonder. how else does a zero win kills?
Let’s see…
Fuel tanks, Oil systems, traction of control surfaces, we talked about possible addition of ammo detonations, you talked about spars.
idk, maybe make use of WT’s MODULAR system!!!
Explosives will still have a place, that you can’t comprehend more than 2 shell types existing on equal terms is your fault.
But yeah, Boo Womp, like it is currently because people just want the obviouly horrendously bad placed shot they landed while almost taking a suidical stall shot to cash them a kill. So weird since you consider AP to be actually useful. What’s this? A shell with an actual downside but also an UPSIDE? No way!!
Are 4x 20mm worth BR increases?
Is Yak-3P really +0.3BR material compared to Yak-3?
Is La-7B-20 really +0.3BR material compared to La-7?
Are the 4 cannon variants of the FW-190 A4 / A5 worth it?
Is the g.55 serie 1 really +1.0 BR material compared to g.55 serie 0?
Is the Yak-9T really better than the Yak-9?
Who uses 23mm from Yak-9Ps with their own free will? Only 23mm in use are those from late-props like La-9 or early jets which you can’t replace. Only past NR-23 (900RPM) do people stop minding.
Are gunpods actually useful? Do 109s/190s really need those?
Why even add more than 6grams of TNT equivalent to explosive rounds? Man the soviets, Japanese, British, French basically and literally EVERYBODY tried to push for more filler or firerate? Armor plates? But if AP just punches in one side and out the other, it’s not there was a certain factor called fragmentation making some ruckus.
C’mon even the ShVAK has a round with 8g of TNT equivalent!
In fact why they complain about the poor AP performance of it? They weren’t strafing tanks, so maybe it was the armor of their enemies wasn’t it?
And once again I remind you, these 20mm cannons leaves holes the size of your face on stuff the size of a small shed and the skin doesn’t support the structural load, it’s the airframe, AKA the spars.
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set on fire and breaking apart while spinning out of control
lol
lmao even
at least pretend to know anything about aviation, weren’t you the one saying you did more research than me or feetpics?
do you know what “stressed skin” means?
in previous versions it is very likely that this wouldn’t be a kill
Yes. It is one of very few constants in the BR system. Planes with 4 cannons are always higher than an identical model with less and are often played even more.
ok go fly your plane with nothing but spars and see how that works out for you