Cannons doing too much damge

[iegaatdao]

@skultew1234

It is 20mm what already positive over .50

Yeah the positive is just “it can explode” and each individual shell is more powerful than the .50 cal but you have the piles of downsides on it, US did alredy produce the 50cal and made it it’s primary armament, Japanese Army just upscaled the 12.7mm into the ho-5 but they still mounted them in the same airframes.

Italy never really produced a domestic 20mm for aircraft and thus they also made .50s and later on sourced mg151s.

@skultew1234

Model 5 can’t be placed on planes without modifications and no any actual built fighter received it.
It would be placed on new modifications like A7M3

Well that stinks, at least more info since I can barely find info on the device itself.

@skultew1234

Type 99 Mark 2 Model 4 could be modified to the 620 RPM version but without the name changes

hey! that would put the Type 99 close to the hispano.

@skultew1234

Type 99 is much better cannon afaik

Yeah later on the Type 99 could catch the ho-5 eventually, I can’t check rn which cannon has better ballistics but both have similar fillers I believe.

[skultew1234]

@iegaatdao

Japanese Army just upscaled the 12.7mm into the ho-5 but they still mounted them in the same airframes.

And it wasn’t done so because “full rational chose based on weapon performances” but it was compromise based on existing problems and limits

Until ~1943 Army didn’t have 20mm gun in production (they couldn’t take Navy 20mm gun because… you know… Japanese Army and Navy) so they designed planes to be fitted with Ho-103 and it caused trouble: Ho-5 was too big for several planes

It couldn’t be attached into Ki-61 (and I guess Ki-44 too) wings. That is why Ki-44 never got cannon in wing (Ki-44-III got but with new wing which was something closer to Ki-84) and Ki-61 got MG151 in wing (as I understand it was smaller) on Ki-61 Hei, and Ho-5 in fuselage on Ki-61-I Tei and Ki-61-II Kai Otsu

In planes where they could, they attached full 20mm weapon - Ki-84 Otsu (and then attached there Ho-155-II, II version was specially made smaller to be attached at the same points as Ho-5)

@iegaatdao

Well that stinks, at least more info since I can barely find info on the device itself

Model 5 is not a device but new modification with internal changes

“Device” is a coil springs thing which literally could be attached on made gun as I wrote about Model 4 620 RPM

@iegaatdao

Yeah later on the Type 99 could catch the ho-5 eventually, I can’t check rn which cannon has better ballistics but both have similar fillers I believe

Type 99 Mark 2 ballistic slighter better because more common energy of round (speed + weight)

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

That’s the FI-T shell, that Mr Loofah thinks is “THE BEST SHELL TYPE” of all 20mm cannons.

We already said that pilots survive waay too much in WT, I dare you to shoot a pilot on the head with a 7.5mm, it literally takes it like a champ.

Type 99 is benefited by the current system where most parts of the aircraft are easy to detach, however no fragmentation does have downsides, one example is it can barely get past the skin.

Yes that does mean armor does work, but while armor protected you from the blow your wing or tail came off.

@PercussionCap

No, my point was that a hit to the control surfaces with HE is turned useless

explosives will blow it clean or make it near unusable with the amount of lost area and a missing elevator/rudder/aileron do pass a noticeable bill in agility currently.
The “won’t Fuze” part is when the surface visibly came off, problem is that WT x-ray models/hurtboxes don’t have “bones” they can’t be animated or separated, it is why variable sweep aircraft have such issue with them and their wings not moving and why the “flap” for example can’t dissapear.

Also I said a lot of times, control surfaces are located on the trailing edge, naturally very thin compared to the wing itself and really only block from maybe below and behind.
The moment you find yourself attacking from a little bit higher flaps will barely eat up all damage.

@PercussionCap

Type 99-2 is already the best japanese 20mm thanks to its superior shells and much better ballistics. The low firerate just means you might want to plan your engagements to get a little more trigger time, but this is only with the 2-gun installations; fighters with 4x Type 99-2s see no difficulty. The Army fighters would be a lot nicer if they had Type 99-2s.

ho-5 still has a firerate of 850RPM, and still has similar filler (but smaller) on most shells, so the damage on both would be on par, in terms of ballistics it is closer on Type 99-1 except it till fall short on the last stretch of distance if you aim it upwards compared to it, Type 99-1 otherwise is sweeped under both and Type 99-2 clears both ho-5 and 99-1 but only later on recieves firerate upgrades.

[skultew1234]

@iegaatdao

I dare you to shoot a pilot on the head with a 7.5mm, it literally takes it like a champ

Saburo Sakai spirit

[iegaatdao]

@skultew1234

Type 99 Mark 2 ballistic slighter better because more common energy of round (speed + weight)

Type 99-1 performs better if shot upwards, otherwise the ho-5 preserves speed better.
Red is ho-5
Blue is 99-2
green is 99-1

Type 99-2 obviously sweeps both due to longer barrel, but if you only add a longer barrel the firerate comes down you need to modify other parts of the cannon if you want to minimize the loss.

Notice how the 20mm are closer and do compete on equal footings, where as nowadays if one just recieves a full yellow belt of FI-T they mostly are prefered.

[iegaatdao]

Both at 920m/s btw.

[PercussionCap]

@skultew1234

and Ho-5 in fuselage on Ki-61-I Tei and Ki-61-II Kai Otsu

Wasn’t Ki-61-II Ko the one with 2x20mm + 2x 12.7mm? And Ki-61-II Otsu with 4x 20mm? In real life

@iegaatdao

We already said that pilots survive waay too much in WT, I dare you to shoot a pilot on the head with a 7.5mm

That’s not really the point here. This is mostly to poke fun at the whole “FI-T is the best shell type and no other even comes close” spiel.

For comparison here’s “the worst 20mm shell type”:

@iegaatdao

however no fragmentation does have downsides, one example is it can barely get past the skin.

Which is why you bring a few AP.

@iegaatdao

explosives will blow it clean or make it near unusable with the amount of lost area

Yes, but the other guy will still be alive.

@iegaatdao

ho-5 still has a firerate of 850RPM

Which is great at emptying your magazines in a very short amount of time and its speed dropoff is very annoying. Supposedly there was a bug reported nerf to it lowering to 700rpm, which would make them nicer to use.

@iegaatdao

and still has similar filler (but smaller) on most shells

It seems more likely that they just unified the damage between the tracer and non-tracer HEF shells so most players wouldn’t have to worry too much about which belt to bring. Non-tracer shell has much greater filler, on par with the Hispanos.

@iegaatdao

Type 99-1 performs better if shot upwards, otherwise the ho-5 preserves speed better.

This is to be expected, it is a short and very lightweight cannon.

@iegaatdao

but if you only add a longer barrel the firerate comes down you need to modify other parts of the cannon if you want to minimize the loss

I dunno about you but I’m not losing any sleep over going from 516rpm to 490rpm.

@iegaatdao

Notice how the 20mm are closer and do compete on equal footings

On a graph maybe. In real use Type 99-2 is by far the winner, especially beyond like 400m.

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

Which is why you bring a few AP.

which currently you don’t need to bring AP, because wings and tails are destroyed before you reach the armor even.

@PercussionCap

Yes, but the other guy will still be alive.

Either constantly losing altitude or basically a free kill because it can’t manouver in any serious way.

@PercussionCap

It seems more likely that they just unified the damage between the tracer and non-tracer HEF shells so most players wouldn’t have to worry too much about which belt to bring. Non-tracer shell has much greater filler, on par with the Hispanos.

And that ends up punishing players that do look for the info by having said info be irrelevant.

@PercussionCap

I dunno about you but I’m not losing any sleep over going from 516rpm to 490rpm.

I can tell, because you just dismiss 450rpm as simply a decent firerate.

@PercussionCap

On a graph maybe. In real use Type 99-2 is by far the winner, especially beyond like 400m.

I did say Type 99-2 sweeps both ho-5 and 99-1 in ballistics below the graphs.

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

And Ki-61-II Otsu with 4x 20mm?

The wiki’s URL does specify (“ki_61_2_early”), I suppose the late variant never came for some reason.

Ki-61-II Otsu Kai | War Thunder Wiki

It is the only Ki-61-II added currently I believe.

[PercussionCap]

@iegaatdao

Either constantly losing altitude or basically a free kill because it can’t manouver in any serious way.

I have won many fights because an elevator or horizontal stab ate a shell or two and the rest of the plane was fine.

@iegaatdao

And that ends up punishing players that do look for the info by having said info be irrelevant.

It makes not much difference. I don’t like the full tracer belt for several reasons.

@iegaatdao

I can tell, because you just dismiss 450rpm as simply a decent firerate.

I don’t struggle with it at all, therefore (to me) it is a decent and perfectly usable firerate. If it’s really an issue you just plan your engagements in order to get a little more trigger time.

@iegaatdao

It is the only Ki-61-II added currently I believe.

Yes, it is the only Ki-61-II. It’s a shame we do not have the model with the cut-down rear fuselage, it’s much more attractive. And its BR is too high…

Spoiler

[YaSen]

@iegaatdao

Italy never really produced a domestic 20mm for aircraft and thus they also made .50s and later on sourced mg151s.

Iirc P.119 was fitted with Breda cannon.

[skultew1234]

@PercussionCap

Wasn’t Ki-61-II Ko the one with 2x20mm + 2x 12.7mm? And Ki-61-II Otsu with 4x 20mm? In real life

Ki-61-II had new bigger wing in which Ho-5 could be installed as I understand

Ki-61-II Kai returned back to the old wing from Ki-61-I and there wasn’t enough space for Ho-5

[iegaatdao]

You mean the Breda 20/65? with 240RPM?

Also cool aircraft I wonder if someone suggested it.

[Irregular23]

ANM2 late 50cal in the current game having a slower RoF than it in history. The game decided to give it the low limit of rated 750RPM. While it should reach and even exceed the upper limit of 850RPM, to even 865RPM when firing M8 API i.e. applies to Med/Late 50cal belt.

[YaSen]

Similar to 20/65, but different, it’s usually called Breda CL.20.

Piaggio P119

poll [image] Description: The Piaggio P119 was an all-metal Italian heavy fighter from the Second World War. In 1936, Giovanni Casiraghi became the new chief engineer of the Piaggio. He decided two years later to design a new multirole fighter with a completely new structure and design that featured a radial engine located inside the fusulage to achieve better performance. Casiraghi saw that without the engine in the frontal position, there was room for more weapons on the nose to achieve a be…

[Irregular23]

To the late war, the IJAAF begun to phase out HE rounds out of their Ho-5 20mm, and a plan was made to develop and equip with fuzeless Inc rounds, presumably due to the lack of destruction force of their 20mm HE.

If 20mms are so effective, that removes aircraft structure in a single snap as in game does, we shouldn’t see IJAAF pilots call for 4 cannons each >20mm and even 10 cannons to be used as the armament for a fighter.

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

That’s not really the point here. This is mostly to poke fun at the whole “FI-T is the best shell type and no other even comes close” spiel.

For comparison here’s “the worst 20mm shell type”:

we said or at least I said, Minen rounds / hche (what current 20mm damage type is closer to) are a sidegrade to the fragmentation.

Minen rounds would specialize in quick destruction of small surfaces like stabilizers, control surfaces, flaps, wing tips and Oil, fuel, spars and traction of control surfaces if it lands very close. But fall short in terms of fuselage damage or general all round damage. That said the mg151/20’s damage is overtuned too

Fragmentation will hit whatever it wants but it will not be able to reliably oneshot via structural failure, rather it completely shreds the enemy’s systems making easier to kill the pilot or simply leave the plane to fall on it’s own after it loses control, power or both.

Both are stopped dead on their tracks mostly by armor, armor will save you a lot more than it does now where it is just limited to the stray 50cal from +600m doesn’t do much.

That’s where AP comes in, if you don’t tune down damage people will just spam full yellow belts the moment customs belts are added.

@PercussionCap

I don’t struggle with it at all, therefore (to me) it is a decent and perfectly usable firerate. If it’s really an issue you just plan your engagements in order to get a little more trigger time.

While you do that your opponent doesn’t care since it just takes 1-2 explosive shells anywhere directly on any part of the wing to take it down.

@PercussionCap

It makes not much difference. I don’t like the full tracer belt for several reasons.

Is it like the M20 on the 50cal? it disrupts vision too much? Because any other reason you just handicap yourself with other belts.

@PercussionCap

I have won many fights because an elevator or horizontal stab ate a shell or two and the rest of the plane was fine.

Is dying of more than 2 shells bad? Once again, if fragmentation is added it will spread it out you won’t feel much difference and your opponent would have loaded AP anyways.

And I repeat, control surface are small targets that may take a considerable portion from VERY specific angles on a chase, partically below and behind for the flaps/ailerons and behind and same level for elevators/rudders.

Rarely outside of these scenarios will a control surface eat a 20mm and save the plane at the cost of a small tax in agility, maybe seen from very poor stall shots (maybe common to you since yaks love to stallshot A6Ms and fail miserably) and a lagged deflection shots.

[iegaatdao]

@PercussionCap

Yes, it is the only Ki-61-II. It’s a shame we do not have the model with the cut-down rear fuselage, it’s much more attractive. And its BR is too high…

You think it would have the same case as the Ki-100 where the razorback variant is above the bubble cannopy variant?

[PercussionCap]

@Irregular23

If 20mms are so effective, that removes aircraft structure in a single snap as in game does, we shouldn’t see IJAAF pilots call for 4 cannons each >20mm and even 10 cannons to be used as the armament for a fighter.

If I had zero gunnery training, was outnumbered by about 20:1 every time I flew out, and had only tracer/AP in my guns… I too would want ten cannons.

@iegaatdao

While you do that your opponent doesn’t care since it just takes 1-2 explosive shells anywhere directly on any part of the wing to take it down.

Doesn’t seem to be hampering me much. Besides, 490rpm is not that low that you need to stretch your firing window by much. If you only need 1-2 shells that only requires the guns to cycle once at most.

@iegaatdao

Is it like the M20 on the 50cal? it disrupts vision too much?

Disrupts vision, makes it too obvious where you’re aiming, lack of any non-tracer shells makes hitting aware enemies extending away pretty much impossible. If you are using Universal belt you can use the since tracer shell to compensate for drop and let the stealth ones do the hard work.

If every shell you have is a tracer the enemy can see where all of them are going and you can’t really fool them. And even if they don’t die on one hit, they will be damaged or spooked.

@iegaatdao

Is dying of more than 2 shells bad? Once again, if fragmentation is added it will spread it out you won’t feel much difference and your opponent would have loaded AP anyways.

It just means I’d rather not get hit at all, but if I do and a control surface eats it that’s a much better outcome than that hit doing real damage like taking out the vertical stabilizer. When that happens, continuing the fight is pretty much impossible whereas a missing elevator is usually not very relevant.

There the “proposed” fragmentation model MAY help, but getting away with dodging improperly isn’t great either.

@iegaatdao

maybe seen from very poor stall shots (maybe common to you since yaks love to stallshot A6Ms and fail miserably)

Most players tend to under-lead their guns and will often clip your control surfaces and little else.

@iegaatdao

You think it would have the same case as the Ki-100 where the razorback variant is above the bubble cannopy variant?

The Ki-100-II is more different than that, it has a turbocharger installed on the underside which makes it noticeably heavier. Until somewhat recently this offered very little extra power anywhere, so it was a straight downgrade. Hence the lower BR.

Then it got buffed:

(green line is approx. current performance, taken from test flight)

Now it’s quite interesting to fly. Given the recent trends it is guaranteed to go up in BR… probably next year.

There was a non-turbocharged Ki-100 with this canopy, it’s Ki-100-I Otsu. There is suggestion for it.

[skultew1234]

@Irregular23

To the late war, the IJAAF begun to phase out HE rounds out of their Ho-5 20mm, and a plan was made to develop and equip with fuzeless Inc rounds, presumably due to the lack of destruction force of their 20mm HE.

In picture you attached is literally no words said about planning deleting HE rounds at all.

Ho-5 never had only I and only HE rounds but there were HEI rounds

Fuseless “special incendiary” ammo was Ma-202 round with around 3-4g of Explosive and 7-8g of incendiary. It was similar in design to Ma-102 from Ho-103

Also don’t mess people giving a picture where pilot said tha he didn’t use HE rounds. He didn’t even receive gunnery instructions about aiming with tracers. Of course if they didn’t have resources to normally study pilots they would have resources for HE rounds, trust me

@Irregular23

If 20mms are so effective, that removes aircraft structure in a single snap as in game does, we shouldn’t see IJAAF pilots call for 4 cannons each

Everyone understands that damage model should be changed to the internal model damage (but with its own specific like if direct hit to the spar…) than just structure destroying

@Irregular23

20mm and even 10 cannons to be used as the armament for a fighter

Literally proof why words of pilots (of any country) are no more than memories and opinion. These are just words and perceptions, not a real fact.

@PercussionCap

The Ki-100-II is more different than that, it has a turbocharger installed on the underside which makes it noticeably heavier. Until somewhat recently this offered very little extra power anywhere, so it was a straight downgrade. Hence the lower BR.

Then it got buffed:

(green line is approx. current performance, taken from test flight)

Funny that Ki-100-II was missing its turbocharger for like 10 years or how much it existed in game? Same with J2M4 Kai

Now it is finally correct