If it was ahistorical then it should have a source, so then percu just lied here
Maybe that’s on me, I admit, but not like over here they are tryin to make german mains look bad here.
But I retract the claim on the japanese community.
What do you mean?
Ki-43-III 1500hp engine was wrong and it was changed to correct 1100hp engine using historic sources
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yeah, because percu already uses the ki-43 III as an excuse to keep it’s point.
if it was historical then yeah im in favour of it.
But his point of view shows directly the issue: Plane which got a nerf with ~30% of its power (historic accurate change but for game point it is direct nerf) and BR wasn’t decreased but kept the same
For me this point is pretty clear
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This “new system” just happens to scale MG.151 to be worse than it was 5 years ago. And then every comparable cannon has to be scaled in relation to that. So yes…the “new system” would be even worse than the “old” system.
Why did the Russians decide to use the 20mm ShVAK and 2x Berezin arrangement on the Yak-9P that was produced post-war?
And my point too!
They don’t move at all!
I’ll write the Ki-43 III’s post later
done, now is just the same bureocratic mess as your local city council, post it again and again as BR announcement come in.
Hit rate is already a pretty good one. Also the only cannons that go past 700rpm in any meaningful amount are ShVAK or cold war ones, so I don’t see the need since ShVAKs are supposed to be unusable trash.
Simply not as cool as a custom belt picker
Extremely well
Yes
Why would I need to defend if their pilot was dead in 3 hits from a 700rpm gun? Do the math and figure out how short of a time that is.
The only thing holding me back was how bad the 109 F2 is.
There’s your “1 shell” that magically detaches tails from a hit “anywhere”
Did you forget jets started existing and fly much faster?
They still kept 4 cannons regardless. Look at F-100.
LOL
Against a bomber? Makes no difference.
This is the line (from you) that started that chain of replies
“bombers”, not “fighters”
Armor coverage is rarely more than just backseat protection. Why would it protect the pilot if I’m not hitting it? Why would the rest of the plane be any tougher just because there’s A LITTLE armor (usually 10-20mm) behind the pilot?
Sounds like 20mm damage is quite accurate then.
Such as?
XP-50 was untouched for many years. Wyvern is still too low. BI is untouched. Yak-3 only went up as a consequence of cannon buffs finally overturning the old statistics.
-one of these is for Ariete’s guns
-one of these is for MG151/20
-another for >20mm caliber cannons
-the last one for basically everything
And isn’t it funny one of the few times the community gets enough people to care is to BUFF CANNONS?
The nerf was historical. My point is that it resulted in NO br adjustment even years later.
It’s not exactly hard to aim in RB.
How many planes at 6.0 have ONLY the MK108(s) and aren’t jets? If it was just it and a pair of 7.92s in a 109 E it could be down at 2.7 or 3.0 where it would be pretty good. But it isn’t.
If you would READ what I wrote:
And like I said, even a MASSIVE nerf like this was not enough to move it down at all. It’s still a popular plane and has plenty of player statistics.
The BR change thread is merely suggestive. Gaijin does whatever they want, like currently moving 4 Zeros even higher.
Didn’t know that… should be 100% added in a future united Korea tree, name up to debate I suppose.
well same reason P-51 moved from 20mils to 12.7mil. 50cals are 20mm aren’t worlds apart in reality.
50 cals usually present better ballistics than contemporary 20mm cannons.
Tell me, if you had to choose from a Berenzin or a B-20 with actually simulated filler, which one would you prefer? The berenzin flies better, pens more armor, has more ammo, better firerate and the ShVAK’s explosive power was seen as underwhelming compared to designs from the lend lease specially when shot at sturdier or more armored planes.
So the 20mm cannon wasn’t seen as very good, copying the other 20mil weren’t seen as viable since they were heavier and trying to cram more filler meant sacrifice in ballistics, this leads to the 23mm adoption and then the Soviet simply handed down the newer Yak-9Ps they had.
At least my theory im still looking for more info, but you can think how the 109 E-3 shares BR with the E-1 because the 20mils are poo, now and for 100 years to come.
Custom belt picker will make more obvious AP has no purpose outside of strafing L3s to death.
It can come in too, but also simulate more factor on shells since tracers usually eat up space and thus explosive filler is smaller.
Did they come down as reliably as a 20mm would take them down? Because the 15mm would requiere a beat up plane or some nice hits near the cockpit area (with no armor to stop it)
It’s funny because you can see how the control surface is %50 of the total area at max, only exception is XF5U but if you blow off one elevon on it it can’t pitch up properly anymore and it crashes or you come in at perfectly the same altitude, but the main wing and it’s semi symmetrical build still are very vulnerable
Which btw you can still cut off a tail easily from the rear, no need for AP, just more explosive where you should aim AP at the tail pops off! easy!
Did you know these jets were harder to lit on fire because of higher flash points, chunkier, much sturdier thanks to radiators and other cooling system moving inside the aircraft?
But firerate did come up, look at NR-23.
Firerate helps ensure quick time to kill, currently it is simply better headon and a little more luck on the deflection shot.
previous point but also later on the cannons took a step back(includes the time they were seen as obsolete) and missiles came to the main show, now most jets have 1 cannon, with the firerate above 1,800RPM at least, for a constant conga line of bullets (better for quick deflections) instead of a “4 shells fly next to each other”.
Did I ever mention a bomber you c*nt? since when is the SO8000 a dedicated bomber, do you see the S.O.8000 have the enormous airframe of a bomber?
Only complain I saw was the 1 comment on the reddit post I linked.
the “nothing ever happens mentality”, it’s the same mess town halls do, you handle it the same, you annoy the fuck out of the it until they give in or threaten the PR (review bombs or negative content on social media in this case.)
Huge number of issues with the start of serial production of 20mm cannons in the USA which were resolved only towards the end of the war
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And yet the 50cal still kept it’s place until AFTER the Korea war? Because 50cals and 20mm cannons are almost equal, is only after aircraft evolved into even sturdier little pests to shoot down that 20mm finally claimed it’s place as standard aircraft caliber, and the 30mm snuck in there as the sidegrade too since the firerate issue was mostly fixed now.
It is more an self issue of US Army who decided to keep .50 on their jets
Everyone (including US Navy) changed main weapon to the 20mm and higher calibres at that time and even planes like F-86 were later massively rearmed with 30mm cannons in foreign services.
I’d say more so. Definitely felt like there was less variance in how long it took for someone to be shot down.
And yet 20mm cannon shell filler largely stayed the same as it was back in WW2. I made a comparison above with M39 and Colt Mk12 cannons vs their WW2 counterparts, and even down to overall shell weight they’re very similar. The upgrades come in the form of improved explosive material, higher velocity, and much higher rates of fire.
Somewhat true. The M61 Vulcan has more firepower than the 4x M39s of the F-100 and is still retained today. Guns didn’t truly become secondary until 4th gen fighters, and even then they were still used sometimes in air to air combat.
Look at the screenshot. Direct quote: “You could literally wipe more BOMBERS with an I-225 in a frontal attack unlike a SO8000 with 6x 20mm cannons”. That is what YOU said.
Complaints or not, it should have been moved down manually at the time of the nerf.
USAAF was very alone in this regard. The only plane I can think of that used .50s as its main armament around this time was the G.91, which was intended primarily as a cheap strike fighter and used .50s to keep operating costs down.
But it could also be specced with DEFA cannons.
Funny how German main doesn’t actually understand what he is arguing because he is completely ignorant of the bug affecting other cannons.
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MG.151 damage was reported years ago by @RedEye_ツ who has also posted multiple times in this thread. MG.151 used legacy damage system instead of real shatter for the longest time. This very thread claiming that MG.151 is doing too much damage is using that damage system; the one that was reported for being too low.
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Gaijin released Leviathans update in June of last year and broke missile damage. Somehow when they fixed the missile damage they reduced gun damage for all HE shells including MG.151 by just not having them fuse at all.
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The CatWerfer video you posted is a follow up to this one. The reason he had to make a follow-up is because Gaijin community manager said the bug report regarding cannons was a duplicate of much older MG.151 report.
- This bug persisted for around 7 months and wasn’t resolved until November. The resolution is what has gotten us the super-duper buffed cannons that we have today.
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The adoption of larger calibers by the Soviets was driven largely by the strategic bomber threat; i.e the B-29. Even then they still retained lighter armament on most of their dedicated fighters.
Il-2 Korea has a much higher fidelity damage simulation than War Thunder. The ShVAK/Berezin combo is basically just as good as 6x .50 cals in the game. The 9P doesn’t really struggle to bring down P-51s.
.50 cals stayed in use due to US not having to contend with strategic bomber threat from the Soviet Union in any real capacity.
US gun development during World War II was largely focused on a .60 caliber hyper-velocity gun. US produced Hispanos were also notoriously unreliable until late 1944 / early 1945 due to issues with headspacing and ammunition.
That was because the .50 did retain so reputation and still had some upsides, however as you said the 20mm did creep up.
The navy did actually fully realize the potential of the 20mm, specialy after the M3 20mm which did recieve that firerate of 750RPM, same as the .50, on itself the AN/M2 was simply seen on the navy in number thanks to the SB2C and those super late F6Fs and F4Us.
Most other nations didn’t really use or produced .50s in the first place, Britain just kept their now hispano Mk.Vs with also 750RPM
France was wrecked post war and used equipment from Britain and US and even tried some german WW2 crumbs with mg151/20s until the Juicy 30mm OVERCAME it’s ballistics and Firerate downsides compared to it’s WW2 sisters.
50cal tried to make a comeback with the M3 and it’s 1200RPM but it never took off, probably because 20mm just became better than before.
Think of this way:
M2’s competition in WW2 cannons with firerates even below 700, lower ammo quantities, worse penetration , clunky and unhandy and sometimes poor filler.
Most nations just gambled on “bigger = better”
These are WW2 20mils for example
ShVAK: respectable firerate of 700, nice ballistics, very compact, bad explosive power and penetration.
mg151/20: respectable firerate, excellent explosive power, poor penetration, poor ballistics
British hispanos Mk.I and Mk.II : excellent ballistics, nice explosive power, respectable penetration, mediocre firerate, reliability issues initially, drum ammo (60rounds).
hispano 404 (French 20mm): respectable firerate, respectable filler, respectable penetration, respectable ballistics but sadly a drum mag of 60 rounds.
Oerlikon (Type 99 Mark I, Mg FF and Oerlikon FF): bad firerate, drum mag, below average ballistics, sometimes bad explosive power (Type 99’s hef shell has a respectable amount of filler), bad penetration. Only advantage over the .50 was “it can explode” really.
And we travel back even more we meet the beckers cannon, which had a firerate of 325RPM and clips of 15 rounds each, no wonder planes stuck to rifle calibers for a while even if aircraft mounted 20mils existed since WW1
Late cannons (came late to the party but not to Korea)
M3: respectable firerate, respectable filler, respectable penetration, respectable ballistics but also Belt fed now (Army didn’t see it for some reason and thus we end with F-84s and F-86s with .50s)
hispano Mk.V: respectable firerate, respectable filler, respectable penetration, respectable ballistics but also Belt fed now (Britain just saw it had far more mk.IIs on the shelves and decided to still use them on some planes while other recieved Mk Vs later on).
Then those late 20mm slowly improved firerates above 750RPM, improved the armor penetration, bigger ammo pools since aircraft could simply carry more and just more reliable and better than before.
.50s just could say that the better ammo pools and firerates (which became overkill and started to affect the reliability of the caliber) with the 20mm now just standing behind it, which also later on just surpassed it (F-86s with cannons already start at 750RPM).
oh yeah and 30mm started to have both nice firerates and ballistics, it just came at the cost of ammo pool, where before it was or ballistics (Mk-103/ Type 5) or firerate (Mk-108) AND ammo pool.
But some countries wanted that extra punch extra punch. Look at the DEFA with 1200RPM, “wow it’s just a little less ammo but I can fire 30mm rounds now”
Just a point of comparison of how ShVAK / Berezin works against fighters in new Il-2 Korea game. Note how HE rounds basically guarantee that P-51 will be set on fire and crash. There is also basically no chance of putting out the fire and then making it back to base either. Same with wing damage; not how first shot doesn’t blow the wing off but causes it to fracture and then g-loading causes it to break.
This is currently the most in-depth damage simulation of any flight sim game out there and notice how ShVAKs do not suck.
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Is AP not really relevant in IL-2: Korea or did you just equip explosive for the video as a demostration?
following topic, on the post above I talked about how 50cals and 20mils were a lot closer opponents in WW2 until the very last year.
Also it is as you pointed out, the fires and leaks are the factors that knock down aircraft, nasty structural failures aren’t the rule, which is what im currently not very pleased with.
Wing tips / stabilizers are the main victims of structural failures, makes sense if we take into account their size and we saw the guncam footage of the 109’s wing tip inmediatly folding under 50cal fire + stress.
So you can drop a quick automated script so assign health values based on volume or thickness(as one wishes) , you’d have a B-24’s wing be tankier than a B-34’s but weaker than a B-17’s for example.
If we tune down blast damage in general, add the fragmentation effect + add the exception for high capacity explosive shells (very concentrated but not on the oneshot side).
then we add the fact that they won’t fuze on destroyed control surfaces which percu complained about so much.
You will end with ShVAK (late) spreading stuff everywhere and making leaks everywhere at once, while having an outstanding firerate compared to similar 20mils, with decent ballistics (I think hispanos still beat them) but poor AP performance. Do note Russian Berenzin has a firerate just short of 1000RPM and thus by my previous post still had better chances defending it’s relevancy compared to M2’s 750rpm
hispanos (early british ones and the AN/M2) have better filler/fragmentation mix, better AP capability, but a firerate of 600RPM and in some cases drum mag (and a terrible stock grind because they love to jam a lot without mods).
Akan M/41) same as hispanos but with 630 RPM and incredible AP with 38mm at 10m
hispano 404 would be top 3 if it weren’t for the drum mag and usually single mounts.
mg151/20 would be situational, effective on medium and small targets, with very small fragments, below average ballistics for a 20mm, armor just shuts it down .If you hit very close to a vital area like wing spar or a small fragile area like stabilizers and wing tips it is completely obliterated but then with larger aircraft scales poorly and you’ll need to step up caliber and mg151/20 does have a respectable firerate.
Later M3, Akan m/45 and hispano Mk.V are tops dogs, you can’t deny it even now, it’s impossible to take them down from the throne of WW2 20mm cannons even if 20mm are nerfed. With Akan taking a little less firate (725rpm) but retaining good penetration.
But the Oerlikons (Type 99, Oerlikon FF and mg FF) just can’t find any way positives, at least Type 99 has a full explosive tracer belt, later on it first improves ballistics (Type 99 Mark 2) and then firerate (Type 99 Mark 2 model 5, which sadly only the G8N1has them, I believe it should come as a mod to most japanese late aircraft)
And mg FF / mg FF/M is dropped early on and replaced by mg151/20, no saving grace for it until the super late ones recieve Minen rounds.
And Oerlikon is only seen on 1 plane which is the Fokker D.XXI (Sweden)
ho-5 may become the best Japanese 20mm cannon until Type 99 Mark 2 model 5 comes in ,since it has stupendous firerate (850RPM), respectable filler/fragmentation mix but bad penetration and meh ballistics.
The ShVAK(early) which is seen on I-16 type 27 would have the worst penetration of all at 10mm point blank.
Spoiler
10mm point blank.
Maybe it can finally drop BR buy maybe the firerate keeps it at 3.0
And B-20 merely hold advantage over ShVAK(late) on the fact it doesn’t lose as much firerate while synchronized.
No, my point was that a hit to the control surfaces with HE is turned useless, while AP can easily go through them and hit something important, like engine and pilot. Which was YOUR complaint, that AP was useless - it isn’t.
There are plenty of positives to them, with exception of MG FF and its extremely poor shells:
That’s the FI-T shell, that Mr Loofah thinks is “THE BEST SHELL TYPE” of all 20mm cannons.
They’re fine without it. Also not entirely sure they could fit them as Model 5 was substantially different; Model 4 was much closer to the Model 2s but with 620-630rpm, and for this I believe there’s records of them actually being installed in production aircraft.
Type 99-2 is already the best japanese 20mm thanks to its superior shells and much better ballistics. The low firerate just means you might want to plan your engagements to get a little more trigger time, but this is only with the 2-gun installations; fighters with 4x Type 99-2s see no difficulty. The Army fighters would be a lot nicer if they had Type 99-2s.
Hey wasn’t that the thing you were harping on earlier? Funny how that works, eh?