Cannons doing too much damge

[Gnza10091441]

@RedEye_ツ

That’s how it works already.

Yeah, but this only makes it worse.

Since the outcome is almost always determined by the first damage trade rather than a better long-term energy trade, it’s no longer worth it to take on some damage (or even risk it) by performing evasive and progressive maneuvers to secure a superior position, like working your way onto the enemy’s six. As a result, head-on engagements become the favored option: the lowest-effort, highest-reward tactic. Whoever shoots first or aims better wins, simple as that. That is the essence of low time-to-kill fight.

In a bomber, I can’t even force an enemy to overshoot so he ends up defenseless on my tail, simply because I cannot survive the initial pass anymore.

@RedEye_ツ

mediocre guns allow players to make mistakes and not be punished for it, likely resulting in them diving back to their airfield bubble.

No matter how weak the guns are, if you couldn’t finish him off, it means you didn’t actually outfly your enemy. You did nothing to wear him down enough to turn him into an easy target where you could finally land a long burst; it simply means you just took a small window of opportunity to land a single hit.

It makes sense that a single success or a single mistake shouldn’t carry the weight of the entire outcome, because in the end, a true test of skill is ultimately about consistency. If you couldn’t land more hits, let the enemy slip away, or even allowed him to turn the tables and kill you, then you simply weren’t better than him, nor did you beat him, you just had luck.

Also, if the other managed to completely disengage and escape despite being at a disadvantage, achieving such a feat shouldn’t be considered a “mistake” that went unpunished, it takes skill to pull that off, you know?

@RedEye_ツ

I don’t know what kind of great comeback you are talking about. Getting hit countless times and diving back to the airfield to repair?

No, I mean taking damage but still managing to turn the fight around because you were given the time to still stay in the fight and prove you were actually the better pilot

This can be compared to any sport. Imagine if football matches ended the exact moment someone scored the first goal, with no second chances. The game would become boring, slow and excessively conservative. No team would take any risks, since a single mistake would mean losing everything in an instant.

[Spil1tia-psn]

@Gnza10091441

No, I mean taking damage but still managing to turn the fight around because you were given the time to still stay in the fight and prove you were actually the better pilot

if you are a better pilot then you wouldnt be getting hit in the first place

[Gnza10091441]

@Spil1tia-psn

if you are a better pilot then you wouldnt be getting hit in the first place

And you aren’t a better pilot just because you were just throwing bullets at the wall to see what sticks, and one just happened to hit my wing

[Spil1tia-psn]

im actually throwing bullets at your airplane not the wall

[Gnza10091441]

@Spil1tia-psn

im actually throwing bullets at your airplane not the wall

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/throw_things_at_the_wall_and_see_what_sticks

[Spil1tia-psn]

you are saying that aiming at a target and hitting it is “throwing shit at the wall” are you dumb like i really dont know what you want me to say

let me walk you through the process of aiming in warthunder because you dont seem to understand.

infront of me is an airplane, i would prefer if this airplane did not exist

to accomplish this we will shoot at it, we make a guess based on the distance between us and the speed he is going and fire a short burst.

HOWEVER we can see from our tracers that our shots are falling short this is no good!

based on this information we can assume we are under leading our target so we will adjust and fire again.

and this time SUCCESS!

i hope this helps you understand.

[Gnza10091441]

The line between “premeditated anticipation” and “throwing at the wall to see what sticks” isn’t as obvious as it seems.

Many times I’ve been shot down from over a kilometer away just relying on a high volume of fire and dispersion hoping that at least one bullet would hit me, and given that the inflated damage leaves no room for shit, of course it cut my wing off.

[Spil1tia-psn]

if you are getting hit at 1km then you are making yourself too easy of a target

[Gnza10091441]

Well, it’s not my fault Gaijin made it so the B-17 can’t even pull evasive maneuvers because it rips at 2G (meanwhile some fighters pulls 11G like it’s absolutely nothing)

[PercussionCap]

@Gnza10091441

it’s no longer worth it to take on some damage (or even risk it) by performing evasive and progressive maneuvers to secure a superior position, like working your way onto the enemy’s six

Of course it is worth it, dodging someone is far less risky than a head-on. And if you also shoot before dodging, before merging, you also force the other guy to dodge and not just hose you down the entire way.

This should encourage you to learn how to dodge properly instead of just tanking hits. That’s very low skill.

@Gnza10091441

No matter how weak the guns are, if you couldn’t finish him off, it means you didn’t actually outfly your enemy.

Go ahead, get your “good long burst” in when the match looks like this (there are three more off-screen and two are MiG-15s)

@Gnza10091441

it means you didn’t actually outfly your enemy. You did nothing to wear him down enough to turn him into an easy target

If I am in a situation where my enemy cannot avoid my fire, I’ve already outplayed him.

Do you happen to be a newer player? Because I’ve seen quite often that new players think they messed up much later than they actually have, or think the enemy just got a lucky shot, when in reality, when viewing a replay or video, they already lost long before that point and the enemy was just setting up the kill.

@Gnza10091441

It makes sense that a single success or a single mistake shouldn’t carry the weight of the entire outcome

Why should it? A single mistake is very possible to lead to your death. Roll the wrong way in some situations and you’re done for.

@Gnza10091441

a true test of skill is ultimately about consistency

So dodge consistently.

@Gnza10091441

If you couldn’t land more hits, let the enemy slip away, or even allowed him to turn the tables and kill you, then you simply weren’t better than him, nor did you beat him, you just had luck.

This means non-meta planes or those with poor energy retention would be near unplayable, as the former often rely on you sacrificing a lot of speed for one shot opportunity (f.e. Firefly), or for the latter, that’s just how they are and if the fight drags on you just run out of speed. If you miss that opportunity that you CREATED (not with luck) you’re basically boned.

@Gnza10091441

Also, if the other managed to completely disengage and escape despite being at a disadvantage, achieving such a feat shouldn’t be considered a “mistake” that went unpunished, it takes skill to pull that off, you know?

Disengaging only requires skill if you set up your fight such that you will have the speed or positioning to allow you to disengage without having someone 400m behind throwing shells at you. If you find yourself in such a situation you’ve already lost.

@Gnza10091441

I mean taking damage but still managing to turn the fight around because you were given the time to still stay in the fight and prove you were actually the better pilot

If you were the better pilot, then dodge properly and don’t get hit. Or accept that everyone gets lucky sometimes, and this time you were the bug on the windshield.

@Gnza10091441

And you aren’t a better pilot just because you were just throwing bullets at the wall to see what sticks, and one just happened to hit my wing

“Aiming” is a skill.

@Gnza10091441

Many times I’ve been shot down from over a kilometer away just relying on a high volume of fire and dispersion hoping that at least one bullet would hit me

@Gnza10091441

Gaijin made it so the B-17 can’t even pull evasive maneuvers because it rips at 2G (meanwhile some fighters pulls 11G like it’s absolutely nothing)

1. the fighters can actually do 11G
2. shooting B-17s from far away was a very real tactic

[MeanBROSofD72805]

Every plane in the game has a 1.5x multiplier towards structural strength and G load, we all got the love the 15G the EFTs pull

[PercussionCap]

Even without the 1.5x structural strength, fighters like the Zero and P-51 (and many others) had an ultimate overload factor of 12G, and it was then affected by a safety margin down to ~8G. Between this 8G and 12G, the wings were expected to take some damage, but you could still get home safely.

Others like the Ki-61 just had extremely strong wings and if you could pull hard enough on the stick and not die doing it, could just go ahead and do 12G without any damage.

[RedEye_ツ]

@Gnza10091441

No matter how weak the guns are, if you couldn’t finish him off, it means you didn’t actually outfly your enemy. You did nothing to wear him down enough to turn him into an easy target where you could finally land a long burst; it simply means you just took a small window of opportunity to land a single hit.

Yeah cuz that’s exactly how Air RB works, I should stay shooting the guy forever while 5 other dudes park on my six. Shame on me for positioning myself better and diving on poor Jimmy, the master of them all that’s for whatever reason infront of my guns.

Guess I did nothing to wear him down, no matter how weak guns are right?

@Gnza10091441

This can be compared to any sport. Imagine if football matches ended the exact moment someone scored the first goal, with no second chances. The game would become boring, slow and excessively conservative. No team would take any risks, since a single mistake would mean losing everything in an instant.

This cannot be a serious take. Because the most popular sport in the world with centuries of established rules is the perfect analogy for War Thunder cannons???

Spoiler

Since you wanna talk about football, guess what… the same goes for War Thunder!

Let’s abolish the Olympics as well? Cuz a 100m sprint false start disqualifies you with no second chances.
I will pretend I did not read this abomination.

[poopooo]

I also think there’s something related to the instructor, which means that in most planes you can’t turn enough to reach the G-force limit. For example, if you take an A6M2, dive it to reach 650 km/h, and then push the rudder to the maximum, it will turn until it reaches around 12 Gs, but it won’t turn enough to break the wings.

I remember a while ago, playing around with a P-40E, I did a dive to get at an enemy, but I was too high and close. By the time I was close, I was already going very fast. He turned to avoid me, and I followed him in the turn. My wings turned following the enemy, but the fuselage of the plane went straight, haha. That happened to me because I was going too fast and didn’t know the plane’s G-force limit. Something that doesn’t matter now, since it’s practically impossible to break the wings from G-forces.

[PercussionCap]

this gameplay is 🔥🔥🔥

[poopooo]

Wow, in that burst, more than one AP should have destroyed the pilot. It’s clear the damage models can’t be like that, but of course they can’t be as they are now either. With a burst like that, the logical thing would have been to destroy the plane in at least half the firing time, especially since it also hit the lower part of the cockpit.

[RedEye_ツ]

Yeah I just showed this extreme example cuz the dude said no matter how weak the guns are it’s somehow my fault if I didn’t finish him off, apparently I didn’t outfly the dude that’s stalling out infront of me.

As for the guns, I prefer them very much how they are now instead of this. Under the current limited formula for HE and damage models it’s either a lot of damage or too little.

Of course there could be an overhaul that would present us the best middle ground possible, with more detailed damage and all, but frankly I don’t see it happening cuz gaijin switched to realshatter on their own.

[RedEye_ツ]

Hell yeah man, we be celebrating new years early with this amount of fireworks.

[poopooo]

I would prefer that the damage output be realistic, that the aircraft’s durability depend on factors like weight, and that the HE filler actually matter, since as it is now it’s irrelevant. Therefore, the logical solution, while maintaining the current damage output, is for all cannons to do the same damage (which is almost what happens), but also to give all cannons the same muzzle velocity, rate of fire, and accuracy, as an important factor of the weapons has been artificially balanced.

I believe damage should be based on the concentration of shots and the aircraft’s design. For example, when attacking a Yak-1 (made more than half of wood), it would take an average of two shots in the same area with an MG151/20 HE round to bring it down by rupture, while it would take four hits with the FI-T or six HE rounds (less explosive) from the Shvak to bring it down by rupture. If it were the same but against a Bf-109 (entirely metal), then it would take four HE rounds from the MG151/20 or between eight and twelve from the Shvak. It’s important to keep in mind that while the MG151 has double the damage, the Shvak has a higher rate of fire and muzzle velocity, so even doing less damage, it would be easier to land more bullets in the same spot. Of course, damage to internal modules or the pilot should also be taken into account. AP and HE fragments, apart from the possibility of setting the plane on fire, which I would personally increase a little in order to achieve casualties without necessarily tearing the enemy aircraft to pieces, something that did not always happen, since many pilots abandoned the aircraft because it was on fire or with damage that did not allow it to be handled even if it was in one piece.

[iegaatdao]

@RedEye_ツ

Guess I did nothing to wear him down, no matter how weak guns are right?

We never called for the return of legacy damage systems, already a flaw if we see how even the amount of fragments could roll into a fucking 1,3 or even 0.

Cannons doing too much damge

Explosion damage should be more concentrated, dealing a lot of superficial damage and a lot to modules really close by. Fragmentation is what mg151/20 FI-T round does, all the damage spread out, being able to hit a lot of stuff at once, so your opponent ends with a damaged engine, cooling system and engine if for example you land a round in the wing root. It also has the benefit of a small incediary chance Currently only +30mm HEF and mg151/20 are the only one that fragmentate, other “F” had …

Current way explosive rounds works is closer to a hche round, thin cases are almost completely obliterated upon detonation.

Most early 20mm would have prioratized fragmentation instead of blast damage. Since if you want to amplify blast you need to sacrifice the ballistics of the round.

But even then the fragmentation of your cannons for such long time and vs areas where not a lot of armor is present would have minced internal modules, caused all kinds of severe leaks and killed the pilot pretty early on.

I believe the effects seen on the german 15mm and 20mm FI-T rounds are the closest to what at least I wish would see.

Problem is that time to kill is so fast that any firerate / filler upgrades are mostly obsolete outside of the “headon”.
You can check on a large bomber wing like the Yer-2’s that almost all 20mm explosive damage is the same barely any different.

here are a pair of examples where the modification, that sometimes even comes comes at an unjust BR gap or even repair cost in case of modifications

Spoiler

@iegaatdao

A 5.0 yak-3P and a 4.7 Yak-3 are basically the same, because not only are the triple cannons of the Yak-3P not really felt, but also the firerate is barely noticeable. When it reality such a weak filler would see an improvement in firerate like a treasure since it means it can send more lead to compensate.

A J-21A-1 and a A-2 are also barely different, the time to kill of both is the same, just one can headon a little better any firerate differences past 700 RPM are irrelevant.

when you use your La-7B-20 do you feel the 3 B-20S makin a difference or do you just see that your ammo drains faster thanks to the faster firerate and lower individual ammo count vs a La-7 with a pair ShVAKs?

G.55 sottoserie 0 and Serie 1 are the same except one replaces 2 50cals for additional 20mils. Any difference? maybe total firerate (preferably you still want at least +700 RPM total) but outside of that you are now 5.3, enjoy your stay.

how can I not remember my favorite example? Yak-9P! 3 options for:

• x3 20mils
• x2 20mils and 1 23mil
• x2 20mils and a juicy overkill 37mm.
  Any difference felt? No? I bet if you could only leave the top 20mm pair you also wouldn’t feel any difference.

As long as your combined firerate of cannons is above 700ish RPM then any firerate mods are obsolete
Any filler upgrades past 7g is also obsolete

Let’s make a cannon example

Russian 20mm (ShVAK or B-20, pick any) vs Russian 23mm (NS-23)

One was the replacement of the other, meant to replace it in A2A duties, yet in game the filler difference is non-existent, with the only upside 23mm has is more range due to more mass and more inertia.
20mm beats in firerate, belts and usually ammo count since 23mm bullets take more space than 20mm.
Only when the NR-23 cannon shows up that 23mm becomes a respectable competitor to the old dinky WW2 soviet 20mm cannons.

Let’s look at armor plates too.
Since fragmentation basically doesn’t exist for more aircraft, thats one less threat the armor plates of aicraft can protect you from, add to that a wing will snap off from a 0.5 second burst of any 20mm, no matter the filler and that ends with most armor plates really only soft countering 50cal and below AP fire.