Can we stop throwing bones to air abusers in ground realistic?

[warrior412]

@O_HOgameplay, here are my retorts to you…

Spoiler

@O_HOgameplay

The thing is, it was made my a CC who makes videos for both audiences. Therefore, you can not say, that it was biased, like Dollar’s poll. Or at least not that biased (and you are yet to prove that it is).
Yet what is the result? Essentially the same as with Dollar.

You’d asked for proof about the matter and it was given: I explained why the data was questionable (it’s utterly vulnerable to contamination).

This tangent about content creators (who are individually irrelevant to this) suggests you don’t even understand the issue with the data…despite the explanation on eligibility.

@O_HOgameplay

Yet, by knowing that i played them essentially a decade ago, and you knowing that it is not my main mode, you choose to misrepresent it.

I had the decency not to bring up your sim stats, so you could do it as well.

Also, what you do is not an argument. You can whine all day about me not having experience in RB, it still does not disprove what i say. If you had anything to disprove my claim, you would have used it.
The fact, that you had to go on a misrepresenting route just clearly tells, that you have nothing to disprove what i say.

Trying to play the victim with these false “misrepresentation” and “whining” cries doesn’t help you.

Pointing out facts about your knowledge/currency with RB is simply stating public records. Intelligent discussion requires respecting these, yet you disavow them.

@O_HOgameplay

And, when using a fighter in AB, you have no markers. Not even for teammates, while every single enemy has a marker on you, as well as a lead indicator.
This strengthens ground against fighters in AB, yet fighters are just as capable there as in RB.

That’s what you say…as I noted before, you claim that experience of aircraft.

@O_HOgameplay

You tried to go with me not having experience, and you still whine about it.

Again, if i am wrong, use something meaningful to disprove my claims.

No whining here…what I said has already been proven. You’re trying to contest it by litigating…but you’ve acknowledged your record and the conditions relating to it in tangents.

@O_HOgameplay

Again, if i am wrong, use something meaningful to disprove my claims.

A person with little to no current experience with the relevant mode will have extreme difficulty speaking meaningfully on the topic.

I am not dismissing your ability to comment on all of this…I am merely pointing out your standing to so is limited.

@O_HOgameplay

Evidence?

You are contesting the idea that WT players come to play War Thunder to play War Thunder? Really?

@O_HOgameplay

And again, what skill does then that player needs to just bomb a tank, when the CAS player would likely be annihilated in a tank vs tank engagement?

There is far more to standard aircraft than there is with suicide bombing. As I’ve mentioned, most aircraft do not even have the aiming tools tanks enjoy…so it’s involved.

@O_HOgameplay

But it can not be balanced.

That is incorrect and sounds like a plain bias against aircraft…if you’re ruling out things summarily like that, how can you ever judge matters that are complex and varied?

@O_HOgameplay

See? it goes both ways.

Nope…that’s just petty. “Both sides” isn’t an argument.

@O_HOgameplay

Yet you did. It is all here, and yet you lie.

Nope, I have never lied. That’s just another false accusation.

@O_HOgameplay

For example?
SPAA that can be killed from outside it’s engagemnet range?
Fighters, that forces you to grind another tech tree?

You or your teammates have the access to these things and, like everything else, they have their own set of requirements to obtain.

If you choose not to pursue those things, you can do so…but that decision can also have consequences.

@O_HOgameplay

Do Air players have to worry about such a mechanic?

Yes–players may get the drop on them from different angles and other things like AI GFs may also alter battle conditions (up to deciding the outcome).

@O_HOgameplay

I asked for sources. Please present them.

That’s already been done in threads like these. The data has been made publicly available.

@O_HOgameplay

What is this TO idea?

Gaijin’s pitch was basically to have a TO mode in a perma-event format with a limited BR range (undoubtedly one that’d rotate) in a similar fashion as how SB now functions.

TO advocates rebuffed the idea when it was presented, Gaijin backed away from it and we’ve never heard anything more on TO since then AFAIK.

@O_HOgameplay

Long range guided dildos take around that time to reach. Also, it is just 20s, so it is not really hard to wait for it to run out.
It also runs out very fast if you drive just a few meters.

That’s perhaps an aspect of very high tiers (which are a mess of general imbalance regardless), but the matter of spawn protection and how it exists for GFs (but not AFs) remains.

…I’ve spoilered them because the many quotes are tiresome to wade through.

I have no real issue taking apart matters, but it does get boring after the eighth or ninth quote doing so.

[GeorgeCarlin305]

woah hol up off topic the lower hull of the m1a2 isnt 400mm against apdsfs its as strong as the cheeks wtf is that and the UFP too (designed to ricochet apdsfs at 82.5 degrees) is it nerfed for balance?

[warrior412]

I know how to do debates, which is why I am happy to handle what’s discussed with me point by point.

I will acknowledge that O_HO’s quip about WT players is peculiar though…

[JeruzalemisREAL]

I hate how planes can sometimes be spawned without any effort. If it spawns with only its mg’s, without bombs, they know what they are doing. They spawn a plane with heavier cannons that can still easily destroy half the tanks on the field. And because they spawned early, they can do a few runs before something actively hints them down. For instance, the players they just shot up, who have to spawn in an spaa.

At the lower br’s, spaa isnt that effective. Needs alot of leading due to slower shells. Skill level is a little higher to use them, and the majority of players arnt comfortable using them in the first place. So a player bad with spaa, spawning in an spaa almost has a neglectful impact, while anyone cna jump in a plane and easily press spacebar while crash landing on top of their target.

Hardly anyone starts with spaa, so a response is based on how many people get killed by said cas. He kills alot, chances for a counter (spaa or fighter) increases.

Anothwr problem is that alot of cas users fly regularly in air modes. They got 2 seperate modes to practise their planes. So most know how to evade spaa in ground fairly well, increasing the skill gap between spaa and air. Not to mention that even with destroying an airplane, as long as the pilot lives, bombs can still be dropped. So a crash landing with bombs is still not guaranteed avoidable.

This in stark contract with a tank, where 1 crew member left = death. If the gunner is the last surviving member, he cant retaliate in the way a plane can.

[markimash]

@JeruzalemisREAL

They got 2 seperate modes to practise their planes. So most know how to evade spaa in ground fairly well

They wouldnt get more practice dodging spaa from air rb. The spaa in air rb dont actually aim, they basically have a bubble. Spending time in the bubble gives you a chance at getting damaged.

@JeruzalemisREAL

This in stark contract with a tank, where 1 crew member left = death

You can only blame the ground rb community for that. We had that for a while but most players didnt like it. I personally didnt care much for it because it was annoying to work around, both using and fighting against.

[Laserdestroy]

@EddieVanHalo

Ignore the old arguments lets move forward.

I am trying to move things forward. That is why I am asking these questions, and so far it is not going well. I am trying to formulate something to make improvements, and I ask these specific questions to gauge how things can move forward. The way I see this, most people on the forums are the extremes of the community. Average players don’t care about the forums or making long winded suggestions with heavy though required. I’m asking the people I see are the most vocal for and against aircraft in ground to see what could be accepted by them. If I can find a solution to this that makes even a few extreme opinion holders happier, then the average players will more than likely like the changes as well.

These questions are helping me develop a better set of questions to post in a poll style thread in order to get opinions on what would be wanted or can be deemed “acceptable” for each side.

Now, I will ask the question; Are you willing to be specific and answer the questions I’ve asked? I’m not trying to be pushy or anything, and I want to say it is all up to you. No hard feeling here if you don’t want to. I just need to know because if not I need to move on and focus in other places.

[Laserdestroy]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. You’ve hit some of the good points I would have asked follow ons about.

If you dont mind answering a couple more, please let me know.

[O_HOgameplay]

@Laserdestroy

So do you hate the planes, or the ordnance the planes carry?

I hate unfairness.
I do not hate planes, bombs, nor the player.

@Laserdestroy

Do you usually get killed by bombs, rockets, or guns by those planes?

All.

@Laserdestroy

I have a feeling it isn’t the planes as much as the bombs they carry. I just want clarification/information so I can further refine my thoughts and ideas to attempt to resolve this situation.

There is a single thing my issue can be described.
You can use knowledge and skill to destroy tanks with a tank.
You need ZERO skill or knowledge to do the same using a plane, and tanks have no real ways of fighting back, other than being lucky.

@SlowHandClap

People seem to hate taking cover from the air it seems.

Do you realise, that taking cover from a bomb means hiding in a tunnel?
Even that will not save you from a big one.

@Laserdestroy

If an F-8F (.50 cal), for example, was in a Ground RB game without carrying any ordnance (guns only), would you consider that plane to be “overpowered” or “unbalanced”?

It is. A .50 cal can pen a lot of armored vehicles, not just open tops.
Even with a KV-1 or similar heavily armored targets can be tracked using those.

@Laserdestroy

What angle of attack on a T-34 would you consider to be unrealisticly difficult for a normal player to score a kill. The weapons used would have to be 20mm or above, as the highest penetration .50 caliber round will not penetrate at around 5 degree angle of attack at ranges that a plane could successfully pull out of the attack.

It is still possible, and the T-34 has no chance to fight back.

@markimash

Clearly this is not getting through to you.

Huh?

@warrior412

…I’ve spoilered them because the many quotes are tiresome to wade through.

I have read through this nonsense.

Again, i am still awaiting fro you to use any other argument, than “you have no RB experience reeeeeeeeeee”.

[warrior412]

@O_HOgameplay

I have read through this nonsense.

Again, i am still awaiting fro you to use any other argument, than “you have no RB experience reeeeeeeeeee”.

There’s no nonsense in what I said…just things you know you cannot argue with.

You don’t even deny the matter of RB experience–yet somehow it’s my fault that you’ve waded into this RB thread with limited insights into RB and its current conditons.

As for the petty “ree” talk…that’s just another example of you being unable to conduct a civil, decent discussion.

You’re just embarrassing yourself and validating the stereotype others have mentioned about TO advocates…good job.

[O_HOgameplay]

@warrior412

just things you know you cannot argue with.

I am just too tired today to argue with BS.

@warrior412

yet somehow it’s my fault that you’ve waded into this RB thread with limited insights into RB and its current conditons.

Yet, despite my “limited insights”, you have not made a single actually meaningful attemp to discredit what i have said. You only went on this “no real experience” nonsense. If you were to have any meaningful things, you would have said it already.
Yet you did not, despite me asing for it driectly like how many times? 5? Does not matter, it was more than 1.

@warrior412

As for the petty “ree” talk…that’s just another example of you being unable to conduct a civil, decent discussion.

Because you ramble on it, since it is the only thing you can do when you have nothing to disprove me.
You claim to be “the adult in the room”, then act like one.

@warrior412

You’re just embarrassing yourself and validating the stereotype others have mentioned about TO advocates…good job.

Sure.

[Laserdestroy]

@O_HOgameplay

You need ZERO skill or knowledge to do the same using a plane, and tanks have no real ways of fighting back, other than being lucky.

Thank you. I again thought that someone in the community would be willing to answer questions, but I was wrong again.

[O_HOgameplay]

@Laserdestroy

Thank you. I again thought that someone in the community would be willing to answer questions, but I was wrong again.

What did not answer your question there?

[Laserdestroy]

You made it abundantly clear that asking you questions on your opinion would lead me no closer to useful information.

[warrior412]

@O_HOgameplay

I am just too tired today to argue with BS.

There’s no BS to it…but you know that already. I’ve made my points and the facts back them up.

@O_HOgameplay

Yet, despite my “limited insights”, you have not made a single actually meaningful attemp to discredit what i have said. You only went on this “no real experience” nonsense. If you were to have any meaningful things, you would have said it already.
Yet you did not, despite me asing for it driectly like how many times? 5? Does not matter, it was more than 1.

I have addressed all matters; that you are relatively unfamiliar with the subject matter is significant because it brings up fitness.

AB and RB are different modes with different setups and different metas. There are critical differences to them and variations like the meta and FOTM change frequently with patches and updates.

While I have discussed separately matters like skill (aiming tools and the like), the matter of fitness remains uniquely important because a person who is not familiar cannot say very much at all…basic familiarity with a mode is crucial and it’s perishable because things change.

@O_HOgameplay

Because you ramble on it, since it is the only thing you can do when you have nothing to disprove me.

Taking your claims apart one by one =/= rambling

I’ve just been thorough, that’s all.

As seen above, your actions are just humiliating the TO cause…that is why TO has gotten nowhere.

[O_HOgameplay]

@Laserdestroy

You made it abundantly clear that asking you questions on your opinion would lead me no closer to useful information.

Why?

[O_HOgameplay]

@warrior412

There’s no BS to it…but you know that already. I’ve made my points and the facts back them up.

LOL

@warrior412

I have addressed all matters; that you are relatively unfamiliar with the subject matter is significant because it brings up fitness.

AB and RB are different modes with different setups and different metas. There are critical differences to them and variations like the meta and FOTM change frequently with patches and updates.

While I have discussed separately matters like skill (aiming tools and the like), the matter of fitness remains uniquely important because a person who is not familiar cannot say very much at all…basic familiarity with a mode is crucial and it’s perishable because things change.

Again with this BS.

Return when you have an actual argument.

@warrior412

Taking your claims apart one by one =/= rambling

Except, that you did not.

@warrior412

As seen above, your actions are just humiliating the TO cause…that is why TO has gotten nowhere.

reeeeeeeeeeeeee

[GeorgeCarlin305]

no gaijin has alot of stuff on their plate and its F2P so it naturally will have a catch design to get you to pay money

[GeorgeCarlin305]

in regard to some activity in forums making a TO possible or not thats not why it doesnt exist

[Laserdestroy]

You seem more interested in the argument instead of making change. I am done with the arguing. I have no interest in this “planes take no skill”, which attempts to bait me into making some sort of counter claim and then we waste time arguing. I’m not interested in wasting time any longer. I can use that time talking to people about this that want to have their input matter and make a difference. I’m willing to change my view on this subject. I wanted to ask questions to the most vocal oposition to planes, to find some sort of middle ground between the extremes where average players can be happy. One person has been actually helpful by answering questions, the other three (you included) have just went on rants without answering anything in a useful way.

[warrior412]

@O_HOgameplay

Again with this BS.

Return when you have an actual argument.

lmao

First, you ask for evidence that War Thunder players are around to play War Thunder.

Now you say familiarity with the game (modes) is unimportant when discussing them–wow.

@O_HOgameplay

Except, that you did not.

I did–that’s why you’ve been reduced to denialism and this silly ‘ree’ talk.

@O_HOgameplay

reeeeeeeeeeeeee

That’s the most intelligent and mature response you could muster, huh?

Yours, not mine, and people see that. You’re trashing yourself, not me.

¯\(ツ)/¯