From the (supposedly) full size mockups, it’s about the same length as the F-15.
The Japanese and RAF want payload and range. The mock ups are pretty big, even the FCAD which is not a full sized airframe, is 33% larger than the EF Tythoon.
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There are currently no hard numbers with GCAP as of now, only some targets. The main ones are potential to cross the Atlantic without refuelling, minimum of twice a F-35A payload (extremely open-ended, mass? volume? No. of munitions?, with or without F-35A/C specific upcoming sidekick upgrade?) and up to 2MW power at peak engine output.
The shape as we know it is also not the final design, this should surprise no one as GCAP seems to love making a model at any opportunity. It has also evolved greatly since the Concept 5 shape way back when it was still Tempest in the UK. Herman Claesen from BAE and the director of FCAS (UK version) have both said in an interview that the big delta is just illustrative of the ideas behind the aircraft. Englishman in shed engineering hasn’t been spotted yet, it looks too sane a design (not like p.125, p.1214 or 1216) so I’m pretty confident its not final.
As for overall size it is said to be bigger than CAFD which is “33% bigger” (dimension not specified) than the Typhoon (if its length-wise then L>21.2m). Both German and French officials have used hyperbolic comments to describe GCAP as a strategic bomber as of late and very early on (pre-GCAP) Swedish officials made a comment saying the UK would need bigger runways and hangars to build the aircraft they wanted. Worth noting that officials related to GCAP have described both as a modern aardvark and a 21st century Mosquito.
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I think it’s volume since that’s the most important thing for internal bays over weight, and munitions count can change as it’s developed
I think GCAP empty weight could exceed 50,000lb
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“Both German and French officials have used hyperbolic comments to describe GCAP as a strategic bomber as of late and very early on (pre-GCAP) Swedish officials made a comment saying the UK would need bigger runways and hangars to build the aircraft they wanted.”
Well before the FCAS wheels fell off - I would be highly surprised if they DIDN’T try to argue that it’s main competitor was going to be big, expensive and massive and it eats small children so it’s awful… and oh by the way - buy our jet instead!
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Personally I agree, its all speculation on my part but seeing as the Japanese have an anti-maritime requirement and the RAF have the same for the North Sea/GIUK gap and there is interest in GCAP hitting targets “that make the arrows” (factories) combined with STRATUS-LO/RS taking that role in the future makes for a huge internal space requirement by volume. The STRATUS family of missiles is both long and wide after all.
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It would be on brand for Europe to throw shade, but I think its far more about communicating to politicians that this does not fit the requirements they need at all. Italian politicians initially leaned towards FCAS but they listened to both the military and industry in their county who both argued they would get more out of GCAP. They are indeed correct up to this point in time.
Pretty much. All of the important decision making and politicking will be behind closed doors.
I do think the combo of UK + Japan is particularly intriguing due to the shared interest in covering vast swathes of Maritime area. Italy, Canada and Germany would all bring their additional inputs even if they are a bit late to the programme to influence the initial design directions.
The more players who bring cash to the table - the greater the likelihood of enough orders and incentives for the programme to work.
It also has the benefit of NOT being US origin - which has done more to undermine it’s own arms sales over the past two years than any competitor could ever dream.
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Considering Atlantic crossing is between 2850km and 5600km, could even be well in excess of 55,000lb
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So are the Japanese ASM btw!
ASM-3A is 6m long, and its replacement (ASM-3 Kai) that’ll probably serve on GCAP is looking longer
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I would argue otherwise at this point, the UK, Japan and Italy have proven excellent core partners in terms of cooperation thus far. Of the top of my head (read - may be wrong) the time to for the joint venture too under half the time it took for the Eurofighter. Observers like Canada are great additions but its a miracle that the cooperation has gone so smoothly so far, no need to poke the hornets nest.
A great potential partner in my eyes would be Norway. Seeing as they bought the Type 26 frigate and wanted as close as possible to the UKs and in the future the UK will be offering an aircraft with great anti-maritime capability also built to complement F-35s, it looks right up their alley. Only as an observer though I really think UK+JP+IT at the core is the way forward.
Indeed a huge political boon as of now. GCAP is looking to steal the US export’s thunder and become the 6th gen F-35 of exports. The UK has planned to sell the aircraft from the moment the Tempest development started.
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I didn’t know it was even larger than STRATUS in terms of length, its going to need one impressive weapon bay to field these weapons.
Too high end to ever match it in export success. And more countries collaborating means nothing, look at F-16 vs Tornado exports
You don’t know that until we actually see unit prices and interest. Worth considering that F-35 was initially seen as monumentally expensive until more countries came around to the idea that 5th Gens are expensive whichever option you pick.
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Look at the claims of 2 MW power, new advanced engines, Atlantic crossing, over 2x bay capacity of F-35. Add on expensive new avionics that are larger than previous ones for the bigger jet, and this can easily be over 300 million euros per unit
F-35 unit cost wound up being lower than EFT/Rafale anyways
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I agree its never going to match the raw export numbers of the F-35 or be sold to as many nations. However GCAP is setting its self up for success, it has interest from Canada and Poland. Singapore is rumoured to be looking into it too. Its built to work with the F-35 as best as possible and its capabilities in the anti-maritime domain make it attractive to anyone near a large body of water with people they don’t like on the other side (UK may blow up France). Again just not being a US airframe is currently a great boon politically, especially when dealing with nations interested in the freedom to modify and integrate or just other European nations.
Ultimately time will tell but I have high hopes for it for now.
This is basically the biggest boon. You don’t want to spaff a load of money on something that might be scuppered one day because the Whitehouse Whatsit throws a tantrum one day.
Conversely you probably don’t want anything from China because of the issues of security unless you had full tech transfer and could build it under license (unlikely).
Russia? Well I don’t think they will be anywhere near a 6th Gen for a while now…
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Even if itself is not going to be replacing the US export, Europe is still looking to move away from the US monopoly due to the annoying orange. If not this others will fill the holes that are missing.
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I agree the cost will be high but 300 million USD per unit was predicted for NGAD and that will utilise adaptive cycle engines and also require a huge range. Interestingly nothing has been said of the F-47 payload for now (given the US’s prowess in CCAs they could give the F-47 a light payload and expect the CCAs to do the work). Under the presumption that the US is pulling out all the stops for the F-47 and that the f-47 was estimated to be 300 mil USD I would expect GCAP to be slightly to moderately less.
Still worth noting we are in the realms of pure speculation now.