The zeros have really bad control compression when diving, so you build speed up below them you can use that.
→ Additionally note how Minengeschoß loses almost 95% of it’s efficiency whenever you hit a wing cannon / module below aircraft skin.
I believe this is a different bug, mainly because this shot did not visually hit a component. It’s hard to see in this screenshot but the round did not hit the spar nor the fuel tank, it flew above. It might be a visual glitch and the round did hit the tank, but I never managed to reproduce this 95% reduction in damage output when hitting the fuel tanks, of any nation.
Whatever it might be, All those bugs contribute to annoyance of playing 190 and 109 is air rb. You have inferior vehicles, inferior gun ballistics, inferior gun damage. And it seems that gaijin want it to be this way, with the nerf of the 190 Antons cooling and the weird fight model of the A-5 that make them worse than the heavier A-8.
From Catwerfer testing:
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190-A5 EM-Diagram, 3.4T according to the official wiki
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190-A8 EM-Diagram, 3.75T according to the official wiki. Note how the compression differs heavily above 550kph. Further, despite having 350kg of difference, the A5 has ~25deg/s best turnrate VS ~26deg/s at the same speed, at 700kph the A8 reach 27/s.
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190 A-1, 3.34T according to official wiki
A-5 should sit between A1 and A8 and yet it’s the worse Antons of the game. Why? Realistically, the A5/U2 should be the best Anton, with similar FM to the A-1 but more power and better armament.
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The reality of air combat is that planes are very similar to humans in functionality.
The engine is the heart that supplies power.
The brain is the pilot.
Fuel and coolants are like blood.
Controls are like the spine.
Wings are like feet.
Shooting a 20mm at a plane is like firing a .22 at someone.
It won’t do much unless it hits something vital.
Even a 37-40mm HE round still doesn’t pack the explosion content to either blow a wing or tail off a fighter and the likelihood for to bring it down, sooner or later, is like 50%.
Either due to:
- Knocking out or disabling the pilot
- Killing the engine immediately
- Killing the engine due to oil/water leaks
- Causing a lethal fuel fire
- Fuel running out from damaged tanks
- Loss of controls from damaged control cables
While a 30mm Mineshell lacks almost any meaningful fragmentation and kills mainly due to structural damage, containing much more explosive in a thin casing.
Either blowing a tail off or causing so much damage to a wing that a plane that keeping it in the air isn’t possible anymore.
Now, a 20mm Mineshell is a lot less deadly than a 30mm Mineshell, because it can’t overpressure the tail structure unless the plane is made from wood,
while it requires around 4 hits to cause the same structural damage to a wing.
20mm Explosive rounds from ShVAK, Hispano or Type 99 cause even less structural damage and are much lighter than 37-40mm shells.
Unless you get a direct hit with either AP or HE into a vital component, you not bringing down a plane with just 20mm hits.
There’s a reason why most countries invested in 37-40mm AA guns, because 20mm or 25mm guns just didn’t cut it for reliably downing a plane.
20mm is like the minimum caliber you want for the job.
A 7.7mm MG has no realistic chance to bring down a plane unless hitting the pilot and causing a delayed kill from damaged cooling systems.
An engine will tank 7.7mm hits without too much trouble and even 12.7mm rounds won’t be able to kill an engine instantly like in WT.
Both ShVAKs and British Hispanos were always loaded with 50% kinetic rounds (Ball, API, SAPI) because rounds piercing through the airframe and hitting components inside was always desirable instead of just having shells explode on impact sending just small fragments into it.
20mm Mineshells should be like shotgun rounds compared to other 20mm shells, having limited range but causing much higher structural damage.
It also doesn’t help that fuel tank damage in WT is basically irrelevant and fire chance is just based on RNG with small calibers completely outperforming larger ones.
A ShVAK API should cause a lot of damages to fuel tanks, creating fuel leaks that 12.7mm API rounds and 20mm HEFI-T shells can ignite.
But you still need to hit a fuel tank before you are likely going to take a plane out.
But when any 20mm HE round can shoot a wing or tail off in 1-2 hits, larger calibers, Mineshells or rounds that aren’t HE have no point in being used.
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I’d argue 30mm M-geschoss with tracer has enough “meat” for fragmenting. Walls are thin for 3cm shell, but they are thick enough for at least some fragments to be meaningfull, and then there’s rear and front sections, both made of way thicker material. It’s 330g with what, 75g of explosives? Add 4g for tracer and we still arrive at around 250g of steel in the package.
We had this discussion before, I generally agree with you, still I’d expect anyone within 2m radius would get absolutely shredded with fragments.
Walls are mostly thin, but they are still a big step up from 20mm M-geschoss.
The shell mostly delivers the damage via blast itself but I think we can expect a ton of fragments too.
And at least vs smaller frames, like Spitfire’s MK108 was basically a 1-shot wonder, if British testing is to be believed
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Well, it’s going to be as much fragments as five 15mm HEF-T shells.
And you need 75 15mm hits to bring down a bomber, probably because of the rather small fragments.
And since it has so much explosive, the fragments will be even smaller than the 15mm shell.
So I would say the fragments are mostly irrelevant, even though a near hit can still put some holes into oil and water tanks.
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It’s pretty likely for a 30mm Mineshell to bring down a fighter in one shot.
Smaller targets are always very vulnerable to structural damage.
Hence 35mm (Oerlikon) Mineshells with 120g explosive filler to bring down an fighter/bomber in one shot.
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And regarding the ability to bring down a fighter in 1 shot - being basically as good as US 37mm HE (if we take B-kill into consideration, arguably better) with shell itself being half the weight, is pretty impressive.
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Guys, I think I figured out the trajectory problem, which to me was a much bigger issue than dmg.
After studying datamined stats, im convinced that Stealth belt for 151 and Night belt for MK108 are both really bad.
20mm HEI are much lighter than other types, with drag coefficient as high as all of them. And the bullet drop curve is more steep:
20 mm HEI stats:
“mass”: 0.092,
“caliber”: 0.02,
“speed”: 785.0,
“Cx”: 0.56789,
“maxDistance”: 2600.0,
20mm API stats (air belts)
“mass”: 0.117,
“caliber”: 0.02,
“speed”: 720.0,
“Cx”: 0.59471,
“maxDistance”: 3000.0,
The higher drag and lower velocity is compensated by much higher mass, because it bleeds velocity much slower due to inertia, at a smoother rate.
Comparing their performance in-game, you’ll see Air belts have much more comfortable, predictable path. While shooting Stealth rounds feels like throwing tampons or something.
Im too lazy to now explain the mk108, but basically, night belts have a 3 times worse of a bullet drop, compared to universal
Actually stealth shells are much faster. Why? Ask Gaijoob.
They are faster at 100-200m range. Beyond that their velocity starts dropping off drastically. With air belts I can hit targets even at 600-800m with MUCH less lead required and with vertical targeting off. The bullet path with Air Belts is much flatter. The slower initial velocity is almost irrelevant in terms of being able to hit the target at close range.
I’m 100% sure of this but I’m just trying to be helpful, up to you if you use this info or not
It drops drastically from the very beginning. Thing is, there’s 790m/s to drop as opposed to 720m/s with air belts, that also contain IT shell, that a pilot can tank with his face and receive minor damage, because IT is the worst shell in game.
But IT shell has good ballistics for 20mm outside of muzzle velocity, so it looks like the shells are flying in a consistent manner, but they’re not because M-geschoss is slowing down a lot, and unfortunately Germans did not make "relative high capacity conventional HE"with decent ballistics, so we’re stuck with what we have. Game only lacks Brandgranate 44 (HE that only explodes inside fuel tanks or against solid steel basically) and M-geschoss X, but neither would be a noticeable improvement, and our lord and saviour MG213 (edit: removed c, c was 30mm with horribad MV) did not arrive in time :(
So to sum it up - stealth is the only way. It still is horrible. But it works for me well enough when it comes to hitting the target What doesn’t work is target going properly ded from getting hit.
2 Likes
From what i have seen about german vehicle from getting rank III of germany, It’s a good tech tree the Teams mainly suck allot so i suspect that Authors case is probably false
Minengeschoss got nerfed to oblivion and doesn’t seem to actually work properly, at all currently. It’s damage is abysmal and it regularly scores “hits”. On top of that it explodes by itself way too early, having an “effective range” for no good reason.
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Are you sure? I tested them some time ago and it seemed that Incendiary, HEI and HEI-T have the same ballistics.
While in reality HEI-T should have much better ballistics, while Incendiary, HEI and HEFI should have the 20mm Mineshell potatoe ballistic performance.
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But how does that make sense?
Each shell has their own ballistic values while speed is the same for each shell.
A faster 20mm Mineshell shouldn’t suddenly drop more than one being fired at lower velocity.
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I love how someone who plays virtually exclusive Japanese planes and only played roughly 15 games in the Fw190 is arguing that the planes are totally fine in WT and can “outplay” zeroes.
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Bro, I don’t know shit about Physics, but the reply to your question is literary “e=mc2” LOL
Imagine picking up and throwing a cotton ball. Then imagine throwing a baseball.
Cotton ball is much lighter so INITIIALLY it will be going faster (for 0.0001sec) but than instantly it will be slowed down due to air torsion because it has very little mass of its own so there isn’t any inertia to keep it going
While A baseball is heavier but will travel much further
See?
Regarding mixed rounds in a belt, all your rounds will have the same flight model as the first round in the belt
No they won’t.
That’s the thing
Gajioob in their infinite wisdom made the shells share the muzzle velocity, and only that.
Ok, now, wait a fkn minute. Are you telling me I had a completely wrong idea about how this bug works? That it copy pastes muzzle velocity ONLY, , but otherwise each type of round is affected correctly by round-specific values for drag, mass, etc and they go all over the place?
Oh my god, if it’s true I’m gonna lose my mind. And im sure it is because some in game moments make more sense this way. Omg
The most ironic part is that I still won like 9/10 recent games, apparently mostly by hitting them with tracer rounds hahha. I ll just switch to the tracer belt altogether, haha
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Why are you attacking me?
I never said the fw-190 proforms well, I was stating that the zero has a weakness in those situations that being the controls locking up.
I do think that the fw-190 underproforms, the bf-109e on the other hand I like better than the first f4u. The middle tiers of bf-109 are mid.