Battle Rating changes for January 2024 (post feedback)

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

@WieseAufmWald

Which are known for having some of the worst mobility for MBTs at that BR, so that’s not contradicting my statement.

So in other words it’s still better than half of all Russian top tier tanks in mobility, and therefore it isn’t at a deficit when comparing it to other Russian top tier tanks.

@WieseAufmWald

It has no ERA compared to the T90A, and the T90A isn’t known for great armor to begin with. It still has the same driver port and lower plate weakspots, no ERA on the sides to lessen the impact of high-angle side shots, etc.

So in other words it has armor comparable to a 10.7 tank and the Obj 292 only significantly weaker than the 10.7 tank when both the T-90A and Obj 292 are moved up to 11.0-11.3? Sounds like it’s got armor that is way better than a 10.0 BR tank.

@WieseAufmWald

in most situations, it will not do a relevant amount of increased damage over even its 7.1s reloading brothers, who already have quite long reloads at that BR.

To correct myself (or really just correct my wording since I’ve pointed this out in the past) before I move on, the Obj 292 does pen like 10% less armor per second than other Russian tanks at 10.0-10.3, but it is able to just pen more armor directly rather than relying on shooting at weakspots.

But the ability to just lolpen all armor panels in the game is more than enough of an advantage, in addition to the larger-caliber round.

@WieseAufmWald

It is actually a glass cannon at 10.0 already. If you don’t struggle to pen a T-72A, you don’t struggle with the Object 292 either.

Uh, what??? There’s a literal mountain of difference between the Obj 292 and the T-72A.

On the T-72A, when using M833 (a 10.0 round), the entire front of the thing is pennable:

Meanwhile on the Obj 292 with that same 10.0 round, which should, in theory, easily pen all parts of the front of the tank:

I don’t see how the Obj 292 is a glass cannon at 10.0. Let’s check an 11.0 round:

Secondary image to see front hul easier

Hm, still not able to frontally pen it everywhere. Let’s try an 11.3 round:

There we go, finally the Obj 292 acts like a glass cannon - at BR 11.3!!!

@WieseAufmWald

You can’t just throw a 10.0 tank at 11.3 just because it has alot of pen but nothing else going for it.

The Obj 292’s addition to the game means it should be a glass cannon. There is no reason a tank at 10.0 should just be able to lolpen everything in the game, have better mobility than half of top tier Russia, and have the armor of a 10.7 tank. The only way it can be balanced is if it is treated as a glass cannon.

Definition of a glass cannon: “Refers to someone or something that deals high amounts of damage but had a very weak defense or health. Often a term for games.” (yes I’m using Urban Dictionary as a source lol it isn’t on Merriam Webster or something more ‘official’).

Wow, the Obj 292 does more damage (from an APFSDS shell/dart) than anything in the game, so it’s got that first part down. Second, the weak defense - for the purpose of War Thunder that means weak armor or general survivability. The Obj 292 does not have weak armor until literally 11.3.

@WieseAufmWald

What does the pen matter if you get pushed by 2 tanks after your teammates around you died and you don’t have the reload to defend against them? …What does the pen matter when someone gets your barrel or breach first because your gunhandling is subpar? …What does pen matter when you can’t snipe well because you have to expose your whole tank to get the gun on target, inviting everyone to shoot your lower plate, and can’t retreat back under a hill ridgeline quickly?

These are all problems with glass cannons, and it’s the cost of the extra damage.

@WieseAufmWald

What does the pen matter if you get flanked while engaged with other targets and can’t react in time because your agility isn’t good enough?

Being flanked is something all tanks have to deal with, and most tanks don’t get over-performing ERA on the sides of their tanks.

The Obj 292 is a glass cannon and it is understandable that as a glass cannon it would have worse gun handling - but it really doesn’t have bad gun handling. In terms of Russian tanks it is the exact same (except for missing 18% vertical speed, which doesn’t matter in CQC) for all 10.0-10.7 tanks. So bare minimum, its gun handling compared to its other Russian top tier MBT’s means it should be 11.0.

When looking at other nations, it’s not even much slower than the turret traverse of the Japanese, Chinese, or British tanks around 11.0 (or even the 11.7 Leclerc or Leclerc S2).

@WieseAufmWald

What does the pen matter when you can’t retreat from disadvantaged situations because your reverse is barely better than a T-72?

This is just a quality of Russian top tier tanks, and from what I can tell it’s got the best reverse speed available (it’s the same as the T-80 line’s reverse speed).

@WieseAufmWald

What does pen matter when you can’t snipe well because you have to expose your whole tank to get the gun on target, inviting everyone to shoot your lower plate, and can’t retreat back under a hill ridgeline quickly?

It’s got the same gun depression as most other Russian top tier tanks, in addition to similar depression to Chinese (most have exactly the same), Japanese (2 degrees more), and Israel (2 degrees more).

@Beeschurger

Everytime i hear this argument i die inside a little.

Finally a rational person.

[WieseAufmWald]

@SpeclistMain

So in other words it’s still better than half of all Russian top tier tanks in mobility, and therefore it isn’t at a deficit when comparing it to other Russian top tier tanks.

It’s still worse than any other nation’s top tier tanks, and doesn’t have the reload to back it up. It’s easier to exploit it’s reload as an enemy, and it doesn’t have the mobility to counteract that.

@SpeclistMain

So in other words it has armor comparable to a 10.7 tank

No, in other words, it has worse armor than a 10.7 tank, and besides lacking the ERA, it also lacks smoke charges and thermals compared to the T90A, and has almost 50% longer reload.

It has armor that is worse than a 10.3 tank (Moderna, T-80B both have better armor bc of their ERA), so it makes sense to be 10.0 in that regard.

Even your needlessly extensive armor analysis shows its turret is made out of fucking paper. boo hoo, the UFP can catch a shot from a 10.3 gun. guess what, that guy can shoot you again before you’ve reloaded.

@SpeclistMain

Obj 292 does pen like 10% less armor per second than other Russian tanks at 10.0-10.3

What hilariously idiotic unit is that? armor pen per second? if you already pen almost everything at your BR with 400mm pen, anything above that is useless. RPM is a much more important unit than “pen per second”. and the RPM for other russian autoloaders is almost 50% better.

Hell, the Type 10 is one of the best toptier tanks because it has the best RPM of all toptier MBTs with good mobility. That’s what makes a good glass cannon.

@SpeclistMain

But the ability to just lolpen all armor panels in the game is more than enough of an advantage

for people with the biggest aim skill issue, maybe. like seriously, even stock 120mm DM33 is more than enough at 11.7, a high pen round alone won’t make a huge difference. you need a good chassis to back that up. For high pen with slow reload, it would be much more preferable to be able to go hulldown well, so you can snipe.

On top of that, you don’t even pen all armor panels in the game. Leo2A5 and up still have enough turret cheek armor to withstand that round. So if they’re hulldown, you have to snipe the same weakspots as everybody else.
Same as you can’t pen challenger 2’s turret cheeks, ZTZ99A’s turret cheeks… they all have >700mm effective armor against APFSDS. Top tier Abram’s withstand it on the right turret cheek when facing them, too.

You don’t even have enough pen for the beak hull armor on the STRV122. Your glass cannon really is all glass and no cannon if you put it in toptier matches.

@SpeclistMain

Being flanked is something all tanks have to deal with, and most tanks don’t get over-performing ERA on the sides of their tanks.

At toptier you either get strong side ERA (Russians) or better mobility to deal with flanking. Even just functional reverse to get out of there quickly can help alot, same as much better reload for not being caught with your pants down. If you shoot at something infront of you and you have to react to a flanker pushing you, even if you get your gun on target, those 10s will feel glacial in situations like that and get you killed.

@SpeclistMain

except for missing 18% vertical speed, which doesn’t matter in CQC

ever had that weird thing where your aim is close to a wall or tank when you’re next to it and your gun goes up? it matters more than you’d think in CQC.

I’d also say you might shoot at heli rushers above you and need to get your gun down again quickly after that, but oops, the 292 doesn’t even have a roof MG.

@SpeclistMain

So bare minimum, its gun handling compared to its other Russian top tier MBT’s means it should be 11.0.

you have worse gun handling than 10.3 Russian MBTs. That vertical targeting speed matters.

@SpeclistMain

When looking at other nations, it’s not even much slower than the turret traverse of the Japanese, Chinese, or British tanks around 11.0 (or even the 11.7 Leclerc or Leclerc S2).

They all have ~28% better turret traverse, that isn’t negligible. British and Japanese also have much better reverse, half and less than half the reload time, and have smoke charges, so they have other important tools to react to tanks coming from other angles, too.

Also I think you’re looking at the outdated wiki page for the Leclercs. Check them ingame. They got buffed and have 23.8°/s turret traverse when fully stock, no relevant crew skills, no turret ring modification, no crew qualification. The 292 in the same configuration has 14.0°/s, so just barely over half of the Leclerc’s.

@SpeclistMain

The Obj 292’s addition to the game means it should be a glass cannon.

Like I elaborated earlier, it wouldn’t even fullfill the cannon part at top tier, and it won’t lolpen everything in the game, all the better armored turret cheeks are immune to it, same as Strv122’s beak. While it has better reverse than the T-72B3 and T90M, it’s still not adequate reverse. And it has worse armor than a russian 10.3 tank.

(also, good job for hand-picking the IPM1 for the 11.0 round for your narrative when the M1A1 already has the much better M829A1 at 11.0 and there isn’t really a good reason to play the IPM1 over the M1A1 now that both have the same reload ;))

@SpeclistMain

This is just a quality of Russian top tier tanks

all the other russian top tier tanks have almost 50% better reload that makes them alot better in disadvantaged situations. Anything beyond 1v1, reload really really matters. And even in 1v1, fail to kill or disable with your first shot and your enemy shoots back twice.

@SpeclistMain

Wow, the Obj 292 does more damage (from an APFSDS shell/dart) than anything in the game, so it’s got that first part down

except its damage output is severely hindered by its reload. a type 90 can kill 3 tanks before you have your 2nd shot ready, and therefore can deal ALOT more damage. What do I need 700 flat pen and slightly more spall for when I already pen and one-tap enemies with the worse round?

This isn’t WoT where a bigger round deals more HP damage. I REALLY don’t get this weird pen >>>>>>>>>>>> every other parameter thinking.

@SpeclistMain

These are all problems with glass cannons, and it’s the cost of the extra damage

the “extra damage” won’t matter in most cases and it is capable of less kills in the same timeframe as other tanks. so overall it will deal less damage than comparable tanks at 10.0, with a niche gimmick.

@SpeclistMain

It’s got the same gun depression as most other Russian top tier tanks

none of which have to rely on sniping because they have the reload and armor to handle CQC much better, and there pen matters alot less. if they do end up sniping, most of the other top tier russian have thermals for better spotting at long range, too. And smoke charges to help with falling back.

Same with Chinese tanks, but they also have much better reverse at top tier and better armor, gun handling and utility at 10.7 and up.

Japanese tanks have hydraulic suspension and therefore much better gun depression, did you only look at the stat cards?

(Israel is just sad and their tanks suck)

It feels like you really don’t know what is important at top tier. mobility and reload speed are key. The Type 90 has no reliable armor and an average pen round at best, but excells with its 4 second reload and is one of the best tanks at 11.0 that still works great in 11.7. THAT is a good glass cannon.

Hell, the 1s Abrams reload buff made them alot stronger. now the 292 comes around and adds 3s on top of what is already the worst reload speed at top tier, for pen and slightly better spalling that won’t matter for 99% of your shots because any other tank’s ammo is good enough already.

The 292 might not entirely be glass at 10.0, but it for sure also doesn’t fill the cannon part with abysmal reload for its BR.

[druidh58]

Anyway, those changes to the Zeros - how can they possibly be justified?

[ehj78]

Yeah yeah right. Don’t even want to debate because you missed the entire point of my message.
I’ll let the number of likes on both of our comments speak for themselves.

[WieseAufmWald]

What was your point then? The TPK has a number of advantages over the BTR-ZD. You just picked 3 very specific stats from over a dozen relevant ones to compare and judged them only on that, wondering why they’re the same BR.

@ehj78

Why would i take the TPK when the BTR is better in every single way ?

and saying “the BTR is better in every single way” was just entirely wrong, as I showed you.

[ehj78]

sigh … and you picked stats that are even less relevant …

Ok more ammo, but smaller calibre so you need more shells to down a plane cuz you often just do “hit”.

Why even compare top speed ? You’re supposed to be an AA staying behind the main force. Even if we wanted to compare speed, you’ll never reach 90kmh in the TPK and any mud/obstacle will bring you under 40.

Ok better reverse … and ? How useful is that gonna be on an AA ?

I’ll take a minute for the ricochet angle cuz i don’t understand how dumb you can be to use a number like that in a comparison between AA. Ok so the TPK’s got better angle penetration … and ? Purely useless against planes and light tanks that have no armour at all. Give me just one tank that the TPK can pen and not the BTR thw to the angle penetration. And furthermore, how could you even engage tanks when you can’t even shoot in front of you ?

You just took a handful of irrelevant stats and threw them in to give the sensation that the TPK has many advantages.
75% of the points you stated are either purely useless or so similar to the ones of the BTR that it doesn’t make a difference in actual combat.
The only valid point you made is the belt size but mitigate by the smaller caliber of the gun so i’m still saying that the TPK is inferior and so is everyone else btw.

[WieseAufmWald]

@ehj78

and you picked stats that are even less relevant

because the actual gun stats are less relevant than armor that only protects against 7.62 or calibre size in itself, lmao.

@ehj78

Ok more ammo, but smaller calibre so you need more shells to down a plane cuz you often just do “hit”.

as if 20mm vs 23mm makes that much of a difference, get serious. Better fire rate, shell velocity, and bigger belt size helps you to hit better in the first place. it’s not like a plane has 50 HP and the 23mm deals 50 damage while the 20mm deals 48 damage.

@ehj78

You just took a handful of irrelevant stats and threw them in to give the sensation that the TPK has many advantages.

I was just mentioning some stats that are about as relevant as the armor on the BTR over the TPK, or the calibre difference of 20mm vs 23mm. you see how weird picking a couple things out and calling one better than the other is?

@ehj78

The only valid point you made is the belt size but mitigate by the smaller caliber of the gun so i’m still saying that the TPK is inferior and so is everyone else btw.

Again, no idea why you think 23mm vs 20mm makes a huge difference. RPM, belt size and shell velocity are much more important. I’ve used the 20mms on the Marders alot for AA purposes and they’re more than sufficient to onehit planes with, at a much higher BR.

[eqS729gYidXuT2BN]

@WieseAufmWald

No, in other words, it has worse armor than a 10.7 tank

Did you even see any of the images I showed you? The armor was comparable, full stop. The only time it wasn’t was at 11.3.

@WieseAufmWald

it also lacks smoke charges and thermals compared to the T90A

Other Russian top tier tanks lack thermals, can’t remember off the top of my head about smoke but why would it matter if it had smoke if thermals are apparently god’s gift to top tier.

@WieseAufmWald

It has armor that is worse than a 10.3 tank (Moderna, T-80B both have better armor bc of their ERA), so it makes sense to be 10.0 in that regard.

Lol you want to try it like that? The Obj 292 has armor better than the 11.7 Ariete AMV, therefore the Obj 292 should be at 11.7.

@WieseAufmWald

Even your needlessly extensive armor analysis shows its turret is made out of fucking paper.

At 11.3. 11.3.

@WieseAufmWald

boo hoo, the UFP can catch a shot from a 10.3 gun. guess what, that guy can shoot you again before you’ve reloaded.

If it survives a single shot it’s not a glass cannon.

@WieseAufmWald

What hilariously idiotic unit is that? armor pen per second? if you already pen almost everything at your BR with 400mm pen, anything above that is useless.

Lol then why add it to the game if it’s useless? Oh wait, it’s a glass cannon like I’ve been saying, otherwise there wouldn’t be a point to its addition?

@WieseAufmWald

RPM is a much more important unit than “pen per second”.

I’m talking about the amount of damage you’re doing.

@WieseAufmWald

Hell, the Type 10 is one of the best toptier tanks because it has the best RPM of all toptier MBTs with good mobility. That’s what makes a good glass cannon.

Doing a lot of damage and low survivability is what makes a glass cannon, not mobility. You aren’t going to look at the 90/53 M41M and say it’s not a glass cannon because it’s slow. The Obj 292 is not slow and it does not have paper-thin armor like the Type 10, therefore it needs to be moved to a BR where it at least has paper-thin armor.

@WieseAufmWald

like seriously, even stock 120mm DM33 is more than enough at 11.7, a high pen round alone won’t make a huge difference.

Lol, what? There’s no difference from only being able to shoot at only some weakspots versus lolpenning literally every piece of armor in the game? Really?

@WieseAufmWald

On top of that, you don’t even pen all armor panels in the game. Leo2A5 and up still have enough turret cheek armor to withstand that round.

You can pen parts of the Leopard’s turret cheeks, not all of it is impenetrable. And that was with DM53, since as far as I know I can’t choose the Obj 292’s rounds in protection analysis.

@WieseAufmWald

You don’t even have enough pen for the beak hull armor on the STRV122

DM53 has enough pen to pen the Strv 122+'s UFP, what do you mean the better penning Obj 292 round wouldn’t?

@WieseAufmWald

ZTZ99A’s turret cheeks…

Penned it with DM53 in protection analysis.

@WieseAufmWald

challenger 2’s turret cheeks

This and the Abrams’ turret cheeks were the only ones I couldn’t pen with DM53.

@WieseAufmWald

Your glass cannon really is all glass and no cannon if you put it in toptier matches.

Not every match is only hull-down snipe fests, Gaijin actually has been preferring forcing CQC down everyone’s throats.

@WieseAufmWald

At toptier you either get strong side ERA (Russians) or better mobility to deal with flanking.

Man the Leopard 2A7V, Abrams SEPv2, Black Knight, Markava Mk.4M, and Strv 122+ really need buffs then, it’s got worse mobility than the Obj 292! Plus the Challenger 2E and Challenger 3, which only has a 0.1 hp/ton advantage in mobility! I mean I don’t remember any of those tanks having effective ERA…

@WieseAufmWald

Even just functional reverse to get out of there quickly can help alot, same as much better reload for not being caught with your pants down. If you shoot at something infront of you and you have to react to a flanker pushing you, even if you get your gun on target, those 10s will feel glacial in situations like that and get you killed.

All of this is stuff a glass cannon should have to deal with in trade for the damage they do.

@WieseAufmWald

ever had that weird thing where your aim is close to a wall or tank when you’re next to it and your gun goes up? it matters more than you’d think in CQC.

You mean the thing that won’t happen if you just hold down ‘C’?

@WieseAufmWald

I’d also say you might shoot at heli rushers above you and need to get your gun down again quickly after that, but oops, the 292 doesn’t even have a roof MG.

It doesn’t have a proxy round either.

@WieseAufmWald

you have worse gun handling than 10.3 Russian MBTs. That vertical targeting speed matters.

You mean a difference so small it doesn’t factor in to the vast majority of gameplay scenarios?

@WieseAufmWald

They all have ~28% better turret traverse, that isn’t negligible. British and Japanese also have much better reverse, half and less than half the reload time, and have smoke charges, so they have other important tools to react to tanks coming from other angles, too.

All this stuff is just something a glass cannon is going to have to deal with. Plus it should be the one flanking, not being flanked.

@WieseAufmWald

And it has worse armor than a russian 10.3 tank.

It quite literally has better armor than the T-80B, I have straight up no idea what you’re talking about lol.

@WieseAufmWald

(also, good job for hand-picking the IPM1 for the 11.0 round for your narrative when the M1A1 already has the much better M829A1 at 11.0

I was using it since I already had images from a different thread, of which I was using the IMP1 to shoot M833 (a 10.0 round) because someone I was talking to there used the CCVL event vehicle which I don’t have.

@WieseAufmWald

Anything beyond 1v1, reload really really matters.

Anything beyond 1v1 you’re going to die regardless unless the multiple enemies somehow shoot within the like 1-2 second interval of the reloads overlapping.

@WieseAufmWald

This isn’t WoT where a bigger round deals more HP damage. I REALLY don’t get this weird pen >>>>>>>>>>>> every other parameter thinking.

Because it can take out better armored targets, and the Type 90 can’t.

@WieseAufmWald

the “extra damage” won’t matter in most cases and it is capable of less kills in the same timeframe as other tanks.

Except other tanks can’t lolpen stuff. What use is a better reload if it does no damage?

@WieseAufmWald

The 292 might not entirely be glass at 10.0, but it for sure also doesn’t fill the cannon part with abysmal reload for its BR.

Then bare minimum put it at 11.0, where it at least isn’t always 11.7, but there are still rounds that can actually pen most of its UFP and turret.

[PapaSnake509]

The QN506 and AGS need to be removed from this Sim lineup.

[_Renzo]

Don’t forget the CV90105. That thing is also absolutely busted in this particular sim bracket.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@Cpt_Bel_V

Same with R-24 for MiG-23

The Russian variant that could fire R24s was the MLA, not the ML. The ML was simply a slight redesign with a better engine, though it lacked the radar of the MLA that allowed it to fire R-24s.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@Kanelikainalo

Now show photos of IRST and HMD.

IRST mounts were implemented onto the 141 later in its staging phase, though was never tested.

@Kanelikainalo

Again that wasn’t your original argument.

That’s what somebody else had said to him, though…?

[Ford1639]

He does have a solid win rate though. Just noticed this. Props @_Renzo, do you play with friends or are the win rates all solo?

[Jean_Ahmed]

The “Eridanus Supervoid” between Français 1 40/70 and 1 40/56 is getting bigger and bigger…

[_Renzo]

I played the first 50-75 games in the SEPv2 with friends after the update.

But I have barely, if at all, played US top tier ground in a squad in the last 1-1.5 months. If I was in a squad playing top tier I would usually swap to Germany, Israel, China or Russia. Because of 2 reasons:

1. I wanted to see how low my US winrate could get when playing solo. Seeing as my SEPv2 has been sitting at around 50% for weeks now, I guess that is the answer.

2. I simply have/had grinding to do for these trees.

[Ford1639]

I almost have 1:1 kd in the sep v2 but win rate is still trash(I haven’t played it much in the last month) I get frustrated and quit after about 6 hours of grinding it. So when I come back to use again later, I have to retrain myself how use the sep v2 again. But I stopped using Abrams. I only play 10:3(strykers) and below now. I’ve used the LAV at every tier above 10– I just noticed it’s my most used vehicle……lol - I noticed y’all’s disagreements and wanted to state I do not use my SPAA first lol 😂 . I’ve universally used it the most.

[Apollo_1641]

@Ford1639

I’ve used the LAV at every tier above 10, so I just noticed it’s my most used vehicle……lol

“Why yes, I enjoy LAV-AD.”

“How could you tell?”

[WieseAufmWald]

@SpeclistMain

Did you even see any of the images I showed you? The armor was comparable, full stop. The only time it wasn’t was at 11.3.

There was way too much green on the “10.0” round to be considered good armor, especially since the LFP is lethal in most cases, contrary to most other tanks.

@SpeclistMain

Other Russian top tier tanks lack thermals

Only one that lacks at 10.3+ is the UM2, which has APS. It’s not god’s gift, but it certainly helps with spotting when sniping, which is pretty much the only thing the Obj 292 can do kinda well (but doesn’t even have all the additional tools for that other tanks have).

@SpeclistMain

At 11.3. 11.3.

10.0, the area around the vicinity of the mantlet you can go through is large.

@SpeclistMain

If it survives a single shot it’s not a glass cannon.

I guess not a single light tank or even truck with a gun is a glass cannon then, since they can all survive badly aimed shots.

@SpeclistMain

Lol then why add it to the game if it’s useless? Oh wait, it’s a glass cannon like I’ve been saying, otherwise there wouldn’t be a point to its addition?

Because its a funky prototype, perfect for an event tank. It’s not meant to be an amazing tank, just a fun little gimmick, like the QN506 or LOSAT, for example. Or most of the recent event planes. Can’t speak for naval since I don’t play it.

@SpeclistMain

I’m talking about the amount of damage you’re doing.

Which makes no sense since a well played shot with a 120mm DM23 can do the same damage as this. More pen and more shell weight can certainly help, but once you reach a certain level of both, having a better reload does way more. If I can pen the important weakspots and disable gunners/drivers/breaches/engines, it doesn’t help much to disable them harder.
Or, in other words, sacrificing alot of DPS for a little more alpha damage isn’t useful in most situations.

@SpeclistMain

You aren’t going to look at the 90/53 M41M and say it’s not a glass cannon because it’s slow

So why is the 90/53 M41M 3.7 and the Breda 501 4.7, with the exact same gun and ammo on a more mobile chassis?
Because strong guns without the mobility to back them up aren’t all that strong.
And reverse matters alot at top tier, it’s why even though people cry about the T-80BVM and T-90M, they really don’t perform all that well.

@SpeclistMain

therefore it needs to be moved to a BR where it at least has paper-thin armor

Just having a good UFP won’t make it great at 10.0. Especially since your reload is so long, enemies can take their time to push you and aim well, worst case taking out your gun, which makes you a sitting duck. While 12km/h is better than 3km/h in reverse, it’s abysmal compared to to usual 31km/h or better other tanks have.
Hint, the Type 10 is faster in reverse than the 292 forwards.

@SpeclistMain

Lol, what? There’s no difference from only being able to shoot at only some weakspots versus lolpenning literally every piece of armor in the game? Really?

1. there is a slight difference in being able to pen a few more weakspots, but you can still be fine without that
2. as I said, you don’t lolpen every piece of armor. Your armor analysis further down the reply seems weird since most of the cheeks of toptier tanks are >700mm effective, and finding small armor holes where it is less that you’d have to pixel snipe won’t help you in actual battle.

@SpeclistMain

DM53 has enough pen to pen the Strv 122+'s UFP, what do you mean the better penning Obj 292 round wouldn’t?

The beak, not the upper part of the UFP.

@SpeclistMain

Not every match is only hull-down snipe fests, Gaijin actually has been preferring forcing CQC down everyone’s throats.

in CQC weakspots become more prominent, so pen matters even less and reload matters even more

@SpeclistMain

Man the Leopard 2A7V, Abrams SEPv2, Black Knight, Markava Mk.4M, and Strv 122+ really need buffs then, it’s got worse mobility than the Obj 292! Plus the Challenger 2E and Challenger 3, which only has a 0.1 hp/ton advantage in mobility! I mean I don’t remember any of those tanks having effective ERA…

All have better mobility (much better reverse, dunno why I have to repeat myself over and over for this), some have APS which is a big survivability increase, all of them have armor that works even against the 292 (some even have enough armour to tank missiles to the turret, so they don’t even need the ERA), while all of them lolpen the 292. All of them have half or almost half the reload of the 292.

@SpeclistMain

All of this is stuff a glass cannon should have to deal with in trade for the damage they do.

If you are nothing but gun, your tank sucks. There are plenty of glass cannons in game already that have good mobility, because if you can’t bring your gun into position, all the firepower in the world doesn’t do anything for you.
It should deal with the reload, and it can deal with the mobility issues, which it can at 10.0, because there it has a noticeable advantage over other guns. that starts to dwindle heavily at 11.0.
That’s why the 90/53 M41M with its terrible mobility sits at a BR where its gun is alot stronger than its contempories, and the Breda 501 is at a BR where similar tanks start to catch up in gun performance.

@SpeclistMain

It doesn’t have a proxy round either.

It was about using a roof MG, not proxy main calibre shells. I was talking about when they closed in. But you can’t even do anything against them in the 292, since you don’t even have a roof MG, contrary to its russian brothers.

@SpeclistMain

You mean a difference so small it doesn’t factor in to the vast majority of gameplay scenarios?

hilly terrain messes with your elevation (if you lock it using C you lock your turret too, and the turret traverse is already bad enough), there are a couple maps where you have to react to enemies above you, or react to enemies at your level after you dealt with enemies above you, etc
All not too common, but a single awkward situation where you can’t get your gun on target in time can mean the difference between having a bad or okayish game and having a really good game.

@SpeclistMain

All this stuff is just something a glass cannon is going to have to deal with. Plus it should be the one flanking, not being flanked.

1. if the advantage its gun gives it is big enough, sure. it wouldn’t be at 11.0.
2. for flanking, reload is alot more important than pen. you’re shooting at weak sides, so what do you need all that pen for? even less of a reason to bump its BR up.
3. you’re always susceptible to getting flanked, people flank popular flanking spots, or notice you and try to get you out of your position to help their team. or even just come back from an unexpected angle after getting killed by you to get revenge.

@SpeclistMain

It quite literally has better armor than the T-80B, I have straight up no idea what you’re talking about lol.

Except for the part where it dies to most missiles and the T-80B can eat the non-tandem ones, both from lower BR vehicles brought up and stock ones on IFVs around that BR. You know, things that actually otherwise struggle with your frontal armour?

@SpeclistMain

Anything beyond 1v1 you’re going to die regardless unless the multiple enemies somehow shoot within the like 1-2 second interval of the reloads overlapping.

2v1 doesnt mean sitting in an open field with 2 enemies staring you down. there’s retreating behind cover before the second tank comes out of cover to kill you, reloading quickly enough to shoot first before they come out of cover and aim, reloading quickly enough to kill them when they push into your cover, and others.
Type 90s can sometimes even shoot the dirt and take a shot before they round the corner bc they thought they have the time.

@SpeclistMain

Because it can take out better armored targets, and the Type 90 can’t.

1. In a Type 90 you tend to flank, where no armor matters because all the sides are butter.
2. Give me any tank and I’ll tell you how to kill it frontally, either on the first shot, or where to put the second shot after taking out the breach. The Type 90s are my favourite tanks at high tier and I haven’t struggled against anything in them.

@SpeclistMain

Except other tanks can’t lolpen stuff. What use is a better reload if it does no damage?

What use is a lolpen when you can shoot weakspots that EVERY tank at that BR has frontally and have the same effect, but do so almost twice as often?
What use is a lolpen when you flank and shoot at weak sides?
What use is a lolpen when you kill one tank then die to the next one coming around the corner or turning around for you, bc you can neither retreat nor reload in time?
What use is a lolpen that doesn’t actually lolpen because you want to throw that thing so far up in BR that it regularly faces tanks that actually withstand its round?
What use is a lolpen when center mass twitch-shooter-style click doesn’t even end in a disable, let alone a kill? (greetings from spall liners this thing would face regularly at 11.0)

Honestly, if you said to put it at 10.3 I could totally see the argument but 11.0 is just ludicrous.

[_Renzo]

@WieseAufmWald

some have APS which is a big survivability increase

If and when it actually works. Plenty of times I have taken critical damage to my engine/transmission or crew by an “intercepted” vikhrs in my Merkava Mk.4M.

[WieseAufmWald]

Well, better have some minor damage than being dead