Thank you very much for the assist and good info. I am quite confident no Australian P-39s used the 37mm, and from all the photos I saw they had the 20mm. I will update the suggestion post with the new P-39 info later on when I have a bit more time, hopefully in a few hours.
I did consider this, I’m not sure where the stance on being able to claim it as a NZ aircraft in WT would be. I may have to try and read up on it some more, I am guessing they trialed some US demo aircraft but beyond that never actually HAD one, I’m not sure if RNZAF roundels were ever even put on one. Info I will have to try and find out. If RNZAF flew a demo for evaluation, and nothing further took place, would that be enough?
I made a suggestion on it a while ago, was rejected because it was never in operational service with the RNZAF, which kinda contradicts about 20-25% of the vehicles in game ANYWAY.
They were Pakistani F-16A/B that had roughly 6 hours airtime on the airframes, and were basically brand new. These were to replace the A-4K. I don’t have the rest of the information on me, but there are multiple sources on the web, you can find their serial numbers and stuff on F-16.net if you’re interested
2 Likes
It’s a neat bit of history but after reading about it again, I’m not sure anyone could justify putting one in WT as an NZ aircraft.
1 Like
You got me intrigued. I have dived into the rabbit hole, and I have found photos of some Australian P-39s using the 37-mm cannon with a hint of a short-er cannon barrel.
P-39F Airacobra A53-1 of 23 Sqn RAAF
P-39D Airacobra A53-13 T-Y of 23 Sqn RAAF
Another P-39F Airacobra (Unknown S/N) with a 37-mm cannon
P-39D Airacobra (A53-20 ex 41-6858) with a 20-mm cannon
Interestingly, it appears this Australian P-39D (Bell Model 15) was seen to be equipped with a 20-mm cannon. I had no idea, and this was new to me.
I have no knowledge whether these Airacobras were later given field modifications as an order by RAAF to swap for 20-mm cannons after they arrived in Australia or if these Airacobras retained what they had upon their arrival in Australia. This is a research question I have for everyone.
This is a very interesting discovery, nevertheless.
I have acquired these photos on the Internet in the North American region. I am sure you may have more curated historic photos within your area.
Cheers,
Nost
Sources:
1 Like
I have also learned something new and maybe there should be two P-39s in the tree, one with a 20mm and one with a 37mm.
I was also going to add the below in the original post. If the character limit can be increased, I still will. But for now, here are some additional sections I wrote out.
That’s Not All! And Honourable Mentions
Spoiler
I have not included every possible variant I could find, some were simply additional similar variants of aircraft I have already included (eg. P-40 variants in between the E and N models) while others felt surplus to aircraft already in the tree while arguably being less significant. I tried to keep the tree healthy so people wouldn’t be researching the same thing over and over. However if you find a variant or aircraft type you feel would be worth adding, let me know and we’ll consider adding it.
Additionally, I wanted to mention the below types that don’t currently fit the mold in War Thunder. Some are WW1 and inter-war period that the game doesn’t presently cover in BRs. In short, they would be bad even at BR 1.0. Others are design projects/contract orders that never reached a functional prototype stage. Even if they had unfinished prototypes, they probably don’t fit the game as the performance would be purely theoretical/based on projections.
If the game ever decides to expand in to these type’s areas, they could make an appearance one day. Personally I’d love to see some of them.
Going Back In Time
Spoiler
As one of the oldest air forces in the world, Australia can offer expansion back to WW1 if the game ever heads in this direction. While it is true that Australia was more an extension of British forces during this time period, and basically all their aircraft would be copy paste RAF planes, the option to have it in the tree exists none the less. There is one indigenous design from this period however.
Wackett Warrigal I & II
Brief: A late 1920s design from Sir Lawrence Wackett (who would later head up CAC) while working in the RAAF Experimental Section. Not intended to be a frontline fighter, it was more for use as a trainer and for knowledge development of fighter production.
Top Speed: 156km/hr at sea level (Warrigal I), 193km/hr at sea level (Warrigal II)
Engine: 1x 200hp Armstrong Siddeley Lynx (Warrigal I), 1x 450hp Armstrong Siddeley Jaguar (Warrigal II)
Main Armament: 1x 0.303 Vickers machine gun firing through propeller arc and provision for 1x 0.303 Lewis machine gun for the rear
Secondary Armament: 4x 20lb bombs or 1x 112lb bomb
Crew: 2
Useful Links: https://aeropedia.com.au/content/wackett-warrigal-ii/
CAC CA-23
Spoiler
Brief: Possibly the greatest “what if” aircraft in Australian history, the CA-23 project undertook considerable design work including wind tunnel testing before politics and money cancelled the project with no prototypes ever made. It is said that data developed from the CA-23 with relation to delta wing design was used to help UK make some of their early delta wing designs, and that it was also stolen from UK by the Russians that assisted their designs as well, though this has never been proven. As an early 1950s design, it had the potential to be one of the best fighter jets in the world at the time.
Top Speed: Mach 1.5
Main Armament: 4x 0.50in machine guns (likely M3 Brownings) planned, 250 rounds per gun
Secondary Armament: Pure speculation, as an all-weather interceptor it likely would have had options for dumb bombs and rockets. It may have also acquired Aim-9Bs just like the CAC Sabres did.
Engines: 2x Afterburning Rolls Royce Avons
Crew: 2
Radar: Yes (lol), a radar of sorts was planned but we don’t know exactly what it might have gotten
Weight: ~11,000kg
Service Ceiling: 47,500feet, 14,500m
Useful Links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjiqdSwMxT8
CAC/BAC AA-107
Spoiler
Brief: The AA-107 (Anglo-Australian 107) was a 1968 design for a two seat supersonic jet trainer/strike aircraft. Another project in which extensive design work was undertaken, full scale mockups produced, but no prototype ever actually made. It was to be a swing wing, but ultimately it was considered too expensive and unnecessary to produce.
Top Speed: Mach 1.25
Main Armament: 2x20mm cannon
Secondary Armament: Two underwing pylons with gun pods, bombs, guided missiles or fuel tanks
Engine: Rolls Royce/Turbomeca Adour
Crew: 2
Useful Links: https://aeropedia.com.au/content/cac-aa-107/
CAC Aermacchi MB-326H (CAC CA-30)
Spoiler
Brief: Australian production version of Aermacchi MB-326 jet trainer was not overly unique, most of the modifications centred around improved reliability/durability and useability. I did not include it in the tech tree because it would have to be so high in BR due to flight performance, while only having 2x7.62mm machine guns for armament. The only secondary armament it could carry were little practice bombs.
Top Speed: 814km/hr
Initial Rate of Climb: 22.5m/s
Engine: Bristol Siddeley Viper 11, 2500lb thrust
Main Armament: 2x7.62mm machine guns
Secondary Armament: Practice bombs
Useful Links: https://seapower.navy.gov.au/aircraft/cac-aermacchi-mb-326h-macchi
CAC CA-31
Spoiler
Brief: The CAC CA-31 was a 1960s competing design for a new jet trainer for the RAAF for pilots to transition from the MB-326H to the Mirage, similar to the AA-107. Designs were made, mockups were built, but again no prototype was made.
Top Speed: Mach 1.5
Engine: Rolls Royce/Turbomeca Adour
Main Armament: Proposals included 1x20mm, 2x20mm and 1x30mm
Secondary Armament: 4 underwing hardpoints and 2 fuselage hardpoints for 500lb bombs, and typical of other similar types of the era, potentially gun pods and rockets
Useful Links: https://aeropedia.com.au/content/cac-ca-31/
AP-3C Orion
Spoiler
Brief: Australia’s version of the P-3 Orion, the AP-3C has no ordinance that I can find that would be useful in air or ground battles, so it probably doesn’t currently fit in any tech trees (feel free to prove me wrong here). However, we do see mechanics in game such as the strike drones of high tier ground battles, and the “random bomber” in naval battles. A simple development could see the AP-3C be used as something you can spawn in high tier naval battles.
Top Speed: 750km/hr at 8000m
Rate of Climb: 16.0m/s
Engines: 4x Allison T56-A-14 turboshaft, 4600hp each
Crew: 13
Armament: AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles, Mk 46 anti-submarine torpedoes, mines
Useful Links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AP-3C_Orion#
https://hars.org.au/lockheed-ap-3c-orion/
P-8A Poseidon
Spoiler
Brief: Much like the Orion, the RAAF’s Poseidon only has anti-shipping and submarine weaponry. It could therefore be an even higher tier option for something that can be spawned in naval battles. RNZAF also operates the P-8A.
Top Speed: 907km/hr
Engines: 2x CFM56-7 BE(27) engines each with 27000 lb thrust
Armament: Lightweight anti-submarine torpedoes and AGM-84 anti-ship missiles
Useful Links: https://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/p-8a-poseidon
The Tree Is Too Large To Be A Sub-Tree?
Spoiler
I have suggested this sub-tree in a 4 line format, by the way the game is currently laid out this is too large to be a sub-tree. There are a few possible solutions to this. One is, and I feel this is the best way for numerous trees and nations for the game, is to give nations multiple trees of a particular forces type. What I mean by this is, one nation could have two aviation trees if required. The second aviation tree, the “sub-tree” would not be unlocked until reaching a certain rank in the prime tree. At which point you would just choose which vehicle you are researching. All the mechanics for this are already present in the game, like how ground and helicopters are split in to two trees but helicopters can be researched by ground vehicles and are all applied to the same crews.
Another solution would be to try and condense this 4 line tree down to 1 or 2. This seems almost impossible and would involve cutting a LOT of aircraft from the final product, but may be possible through heavy use of foldering.
A third solution could simply be that which ever partner nation Australia/New Zealand is introduced to/with is integrated in amongst the 4 lines (plus a 5th line if required). If the example was Canada, their bombers would also be integrated in the bomber line, their strike aircraft in to that line, and their fighters would be mixed in to the first two lines and/or a 5th line.
Why is Australia and New Zealand Together?
Spoiler
Australia and New Zealand are so geographically and geopolitically intertwined that historically when it comes to military matters, we are basically one. Both countries were founded by the English Empire, and were Empire states prior to the forming of the Commonwealth, and both are still members of the Commonwealth today. It is not commonly known, but during the Federation of Australia, New Zealand was offered to become a state of the country of Australia (along with Fiji) and while they declined, it is still written within the Australian Constitution that they can join any time if they changed their mind.
ANZAC stands for Australian & New Zealand Army Corps, and was a joint army corps between the two nations during WW1. The term was also used for joint cooperation between Australia and New Zealand during WW2 and Vietnam. ANZAC Day (an event suggestion I have posted here and has been passed to developers) is a nationally observed public holiday in both nations in remembrance of all Australians and New Zealanders that have served.
4 Likes
The character limit is not possible to be increased, if anyone knows a way to either split a post or insert a reply below the original post so it appears next, let me know.
Yea, this is where the old technique of ‘reserved post’'s come into it to be real.
Double and triple post on your own thread is a good tactic, otherwise you’ll need a moderator, or everyone to delete their posts to let your subsequent posts rise to the top and edit them.
So currently, you’d only need to ask 7 people to delete thier posts before you have a post up top under your post to edit.
1 Like
Not possible then. I was actually going to reserve the first reply for this purpose but these threads have to be approved before they are live, and there were already those 7 replies by the time I logged in that day. Oh well.
You could tag all those users asking them to clear their posts out, but also ask a mod to clear out those 7 so you can have a double post.
Another one could be to mention this as a point about that suggestion thread being unable to have that done in it’s non-approval stage. Like, OPs should be able to see thier unapproved threads so they can be more engaged and remedied if the suggestion isn’t ‘right’ or ‘formed correctly’.
This would allow for the double/triple posting to make things a lot more structured and able to be staggered.
Nice tree, with some really interesting unique vehicles along with the ones we already have in-game.
From an NZ perspective, it’d be nice to see the Venom in there (as opposed to the Sea Venom used by Australia) particularly as it was the last NZ aircraft to be flown in combat operations against an enemy, during the Malayan emergency in 1959.
NZ also used the Aermacchi MB.339 as a trainer to replace the Strikemaster, which might be an interesting strike aircraft at around 7.0.
3 Likes
for what country?
oooh yes I saw that at the last Omaka airshow it was vv pretty. Overall the aircraft I’d love to see the most are the A-4 Kahu and the RNZAF F-16 in war thunder, but this is still a very solid choice.
I think you’re onto something there, I love the Aermacchi,
Also the C-130J we’ll be getting would be cool in a single mission, or even the H
2 Likes
Superb suggestions, somehow I overlooked both when making the tree. The MB-339CB could even use AIM-9Ls if Wiki is correct. I wish I could add these to the tree but the post is at the forum’s character limit :-(
If Australia/New Zealand was added as a tree in this game, I’d most certainly buy every single premium for it, every crew slot, if it was a new tree integrated with Canada equally or something, I’d probably even buy some crew XP to get the new crews going.
3 Likes
I know some poms here do not like it but Canada, NZ, Australia and Singapore should all be part of the Uk tree. India not so much but its a part now anyway.
More legit then the Jap F-16. Had we not voted in Aunty Helen in '99, we’d still be a credible fighting force with a new jet training type to offer as I don’t think the MB339s would still be in service.
Registration numbers issued and training of ground crew commenced (my old man being one of them).
You could add the Wellington Mk.1, Hudson, Ventura and Harpoon too, especially given that the Harpoon is currently paywalled behind a construction event from way back in the day. Also kiwi Sunderland Mk5s were more advanced then the Aussie equivalents soldering on until 1965.
For reserves you could use the kiwi Fairey IIIF and Gordon, Gloster Grebe, Vickers Vildebeest/Vincent. All very interesting types that would no doubt be a very popular option in a British tree over copy paste American stuff.
As for seaplanes you could put in the Walrus and Shorts Singapore.
That was in my suggestion about it. “I know it seems far fetched but it’s more realistic than the F-16AJ”. At the time Britain’s best jet was the FGR.2, and Japan’s best was the EJ Kai, why do they get a fake F-16 when New Zealand (GB) can’t get one we purchased?
Just a reminder in case you missed some of my earlier posts, I can’t actually add anything to the suggestion post as the op is at the forum character max limit.
How were NZ Sunderlands different?
I looked at the story of the NZ Harpoon, basically one arrived but was never flown and then the type was never used. So probably not a real option.
Something else I never mentioned is the possibility of having other premiums such as named aces or aerobatics teams etc. like other trees have. Caldwell’s P-40 would be interesting to see since he was the top scoring P-40 pilot of the entire war.
Hardware and avionics updates for post-war service. Basically a Neptune in Sunderland clothing.
1 Like