Artifical ground attack nerf Eurofighter vs SU-34

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
29

also has a maw. the typhoon is far better A2A wise than the Su34, the maps may be smaller but that doesnt change how the R77 performs, the Su34 if it fires it from a low speed situation essentially ruins any advantage the R77 has, as well as this the EF2000 can easily dodge and outmenueve missiles from opposing planes and SPAAG whilst maintaining a far more energy than the su34.

The su34 is a strike air craft, it absolutely is better than most of the top tier roster in game bar maybe the F15E for ground strike capabilities. But as soon as its pressured or pressed its advantage is pretty much gone.

unfair? 10 ground kills with it is not unfair at all, im all for making stuff historically accurate. However the typhoon right now is absolutely wrecking lobbies at top tier right now to give it full access to 18 brim 2s would make eveyr other plane obsolete. Personally i feel adding all of this tech this soon was a pretty stupid idea on gaijins front as the games barely balanced for 10.0 cas never mind some of the most modern equipment in the world flying around.

the performance is a massive part of it. The GR4’s and Su25M3’s will get shot down far, far easier than the typhoon ever will.
The typhoon itself IRL is one of the best platforms ever created.
Its multirole capabilities are insanely powerful. However that doesnt exactly translate into war thunder at all in a balanced or fair way, if its balanced, its gonna be unfair, if its not balanced and fair weapon wise then its gonna be incredibly difficult to even play against.

18 x FnF missiles i doubt will ever see warthunder mate im sorry i seriously do doubt it.
think about everyone cryin over the su34 with 6 long range FnF missiles.

Now imagine how insanely busted an incredibly potent platform with 18x FnF long range (not as long range but still long range) missiles would be. Even in air sim that thing would absolutely farm house before half hte roster could do anything.

and in GRB well thats evident to what it would do.

So why did they remove the grom’s? at a certain point the game cant facilitate it.

spawn an SPAA. plenty of the su34 pilots dont sit back out of range and tend to fly in closer to fire said missiles.

Like was done with grom’s they couldnt facilitate them being added without causing mayhem then dont add it.

then its A historical and why bother getting hte EF2000 when 2 out of the 3 trees have access to a gripen with the mavericks.

OVERALL: I personally believe none of these platforms should of been added, both ARB, GRB, GSB and ASB were no where near ready for them they are absolutely miles ahead of the competition in their respective fields and without an overhaul of the game they never will function even remotely near what theyre supposed to.

30

look at the amount of brimstones you can carry compared to agm65 or kh29 and you realize why they dont get nerfed

31

10 ground kills, completely uncontested, the enemy didnt once try to spawn in an SPAA like the Pantsir and only once did I find myself against an Su-34 which I destroyed before he had retracted his landing gear.

If there is a Pantsir up, your only real option is to climb to 30-40k ft and drop a PW4, Brimstones arent really usable. Imo, its not that the Typhoon is overly OP when it comes to CAS, but rather that German, Italian and British mains have been use to using low performance aircraft for CAS for the last 2 years and we have finally been given something good.

Given the sheer advantage of FnF missiles. Typhoon with Brimstone 2s would still likely be the 4th strongest CAS aircraft after the Su-34, Rafale and F-15E

Who cares in air modes? If 18x FnF Brimstones are too OP for air modes then when are they going ot remove GBU-39s from everything for also being too OP?

Because there is a massive difference in range here. FnF Brimstone 2s would still likely be limited to tpod range (20km) and so you owuld have to get close. Grom’s were removed because, using CCRP, you could fire them litereally cross map at bases and there was little you could do about it.

This is the same reason why A-10Cs or F-15Es can delete entire battlefields in a single pass with GBU-39s, they have to get close first.

1 Like
32

better than removing nothing

33

The gripen was quite a substantial addition for cas 4 x mavs and a great platform with a shedload of CMs.

do you mean GRB? or SB cause in GRB pantsirs while have long range are not some ungodly SPAA. (they are the best but its not a death dome). if i can get in with a harrier GR7 or an F15A with GBU-8s u can with a typhoon n brimstones. however thats not the point.

The rafale I havent seen yet so cant say.
The su34 cas wise is the second best right now as you lose access to a lot of munitions unlike the F15E which can carry 6 mavs, and guided bombs.

With brimstone two it would become either best or 2nd best.
the platform itself is miles better than the su34 and the F15E last time i checked is also worse performance wise.

how much damage can one do to a base?
whats the distance of the brim 2?
as well as that you can ripple them off and demolish ground units like no ones business, even if they are moving.
The GBU39s are GPS guided and can miss a lot of the time.

big if they are limited to the Tpod range.
Im aware as to why they were removed, im saying they were removed because the game literally could not facilitate their addition at all.

at a certain point the game needs a rework no amount of balancing or dicking about with the stats of a missile will make them function correctly.

there brimstones as it sits right now, in GRB absolutely shit house lobbies, as well as that you also have people istting literally in orbit dropping GBUs with the typhoon, as far as GRB goes, we need counters to these standoff weapons, not more of them added into the pile ontop of the others.

34

A bit, it still had some pretty major limitation though, like the fact it could choose between A2A or A2G and not really both. Also, might have a high CM count was only possible through the BOLs which you cant equip with A2G, so if you had 4x AGM-65s, you only had 80 LCMs. But does little for Germany who I think is the main powerhouse behind the CAS as very few actually play Britain or Italy at top tier GRB due to the lack of ground vehicles for either nation.

In GSB, I was being killed whislt taking off from the AF by the Pantsir whilst in the Typhoon. Given how hard it is to manage Tpod and fly low and fast in GSB, your only real option is alt not low and fast. In GRB, it might be possible to do more reliably, but every single time I’ve tried (and not many because I rarely get out of spawn in the CR2 before being killed) the Pantsir happens to be looking in my direction and shoots me down instantly.

Why? It still can only engage 1 target at a time. It cant volley fire like everyone else can.

brimstone or GBU-39? Very little I think, small warhead. Though Grom-2s werent removed only the rocket assisted Grom-1s. So they can still be used vs bases, just not cross map

I’d guess maybe 30km from low alt. 40-50km from high alt. So less than the KH-38 still. But you would still be required to laser spot the target during the last few seconds, something not required with any other top tier AGM.

GBU-39 already demolishes ground targets if they arent moving and they only miss if you dont aim them correctly.

Yes, FnF Brimstone can deal with Convoys. Which no one would ocmplain about, they are a pain in the butt target to deal with for anything else and quite frankly that is the exact target Brimstones were designed to deal with. Its like saying AS-34s arent allowed to be used against ships.

Of course, but if they arent, then so is nothign else, and KH-38s then have a 70km range?

Still more than the Brimstone 2. and still likely limited to 1 target at a time due to SAL, not FnF.

Yes, but the cat is already out the bag. if Brimstone 2s must be denied for balancing reasons, then remove KH-38s, AASM and AGM-65s, and everything else. Its just unfair that the Typhoon alone has AGM nerfs but no one else does. They didnt turn around to the F-16C or F-15E or Su-34 and say “for balancing reasons you are being limited to an ahistorically earlier version of the AGM you can carry, so F-16/F-15 you are having AGM-65As and Su-34, you are having KH-29s” because that is essentially what they have done here.

35

You can take the 4 x AGM65s and 2 x 9M thats sufficient enough.

I mean 80LCMS is still pretty damn good, compared to the rafale getting 32 flares and a shed load of chaffe.

german cas before the addition of the EF2000 was pretty pathetic in all honesty. you would rarely see the odd su22 out trying to do something before its FM would get it absolutely dropped out the sky.

Hate to say then you need to learn better how to dodge the pantsir man, i can avoid it with a hunter F58 never mind an EF2000.
They are great spaa, and can be a pest when not expecting it, but the trick is to be flying defensive around the battlefield before going near it.

Brimstone 2 is FnF no? or do you mean as sal? and irregardless of that brimstone 2 is faster? so it would be at least better for the plane anyways.

Yes but none of these other planes carry 18 of their missiles. and call it 40km high alt, that is insane range for stand off weapons in this game.

its not designed to handle this level of gear at all with the current systems in place

again 6 KH38s on a pretty poor platform compared to 18 x brimstones on arguably the best platform in game right npw.

IF they remove the SAl and give it FnF it has to be limited to a max of 6 missiles.

again theres a massive distinction, i thought the same till ive seen them all in action, the euro fighter platform is substantially better than the competition, and only decently better than rafale.
It has 18 x brimstones, EVEN you managed to get 10 kills and 1 A2A kill, thats nearly 2 thirds of the enemy team wiped out.
IF it gets FnF its going to get Ahistorically nerfed and have access to an exteremely limited number of them.

and when the F16 was dropped it was limited to a 9g turn the F104 could pull a better sustained turn than an F16 which made littel to no sense.
AIm54s with the F14 are still Ahistorically nerfed and have done fine.
The Su27 and Mig 29s FMs were butchered for the longest time there Ahistorically.

There are a plethora of A historical changes to tanks, jets and boats all in this game that make little to no sense.
Id rather see them all fixed than get new shit crammed in each update.

Also a caveat, in top tier GRB almost every game i do in germany at top tier we are winning now on all fronts, cas, cap and tanks.
They are absolutely steam rolling lobbies, the EF can equip great A2A missiles and smash down any and all enemy cas before they even get a chance to fire any of their FnF missiles off, this includes the su34 and the F15E.

in almost all my games that i died to cas it was infact an EF2000 or F15E, not a su34

it has great missiles, but in the bracket, and environment its not some unstoppable power house.

36

Given the F-16C, F-15E, Rafale and even the Su-34 can carry as many or more AGMs, alongside both IR and ARH missiles. Its quite a blow. F-16C for example can run 2x Aim-9M, 2x Aim-120A and 6x AGM-65Ds

Right, and if you are flying defensively around the map and still happen to be starring in your direction when you pop up to guide the brimstone? Only option is to abort and let the Brimstone just smash into the ground. Meanwhile a F-16, F-15, Rafale, etc, can pop up, fire off a FnF missile then dive back down to safety.

Brimstone 1 should be FnF. Brimstone 2 is dual mode still, but has an upgraded motor for increased range or faster at close range.

I would propose SAL in Ground modes, FnF in Air modes.

and none of them are limited to SAL only weapons. SAL mitigates the quantity advantage, if we have to be ahistorically limited to Brimstone 1s as well, then they should be FnF. Its unfair to apply 2 major nerfs to the Typhoon, when litereally no one else has even a single CAS based nerf for any of their main A2A weapons.

if Su-34 is a “poor platform” then the Tornados need to be dropped down to 10.7. I know its worse than the Typhoon, but to call it a “poor platform” is pretty dishonest as well. Its a perfectly capable aircraft in most forms of Combat, of course it wont out dogfight a 14.0 aircraft, but it destroys basically any at 13.0/13.3 with ease.

Ground modes. Once FnF IS added to them, I would propose exponetial increase in SP cost past 6. balance/restrict them that way. As for air modes. I really dont see why killing AI targets needs to be balanced at all. 9/10, the AI target isnt moving, meaning GBU-39s destroy them anyway and F-15E can carry 28 of them I think. Why Brimstones would be considered OP in air modes vs AI tanks is beyond me.

But whilst limited to SAL Only. I see no issue of 12-18 AGMs (assuming you are running no PW4s which I always do).

So why isnt the Rafale limited to no FnF?

Why wasnt the F-16C limited AGM-65Es when it was the best airframe? Same for the Gripen?

I dont see why suddenly the Typhoon must be nerfed for balancing reasons when none before it was.

  1. that was mostly with PW4s not Brimstones. I was running 4x PW4s and 6x Brimstone. I think only 2 or 3 of those kills were with Brimstones
  2. I was the ONLY aircraft and no one spawned in SPAA. no one, it was like shooting fish in a barrel, I would have gotten as many A2G kills with the Tornado.

Dont care for GRB, thats fair, but for air modes it shouldnt be limited even slightly. but if we are limited to no FnF, then we also shoudltn be limited with a very weak AGM that was never even equipped to the airframe.

and in most of the times i’ve tried to play top tier, Its the Su-34 wiping out the teams. Shortly after the december update, I remember being in a match and the top 2 guys on our team were in the Su-34 with 10+ kills each.

The Typhoon that spawned in got like 2 kills

2 Likes
37

There is a solution thats not being discussed, removing aircraft from GB.
I know, how dare I, but just hear me out.
Remove aircraft from GB but let helos still participate.

Make a new “Combined Arms” game mode were the map sizes are at least half the size of current ARB map sizes.
At that size there is plenty of room for tanks to be spread out, and for CAS to have an opportunity to avoid AA like the pantsir.
But for CAS to get ground kills they would actually have to hunt for targets or communicate with their ground forces.

Everyone wins with this fix. CAS could have its correct weaponry with out being nerfed unfairly, ground forces would still be relevant, and the over all game would be improved with something new to do.

38

So… GSB?

Though removal of Air from GRB opens a whole host of balancing issues and renders a number of vehicles basically pointless from the game.

Also what do you do about nations which are entirely balanced around CAS? Like Britain, remove our CAS and you basically delete us from top tier GRB.

1 Like
39

I edited my reply, i was talking about ground battles in general. Current ground battle map sizes make it way to easy for the current CAS of certain nations to obliterate most of the enemy team without any decent counter.
And thats why a combined arms game mode should be implemented so those vehicles could still be useful.

There are still plenty of ground vehicles that Gaijin can easily add to all of the tech trees to solve this.

Another way of looking it it was discussed in another post about removing “nation” as a consideration for the match maker in arcade and realistic battles as most nations have copies of tanks from other nations anyways, and those copies would have to be blocked from use in simulator battles anyways.
So what does it matter if both teams have the same nation playing on them for arcade or realistic?

40

Just another thought but the SU 34 and current Euro fighters arent a balance issue for ground battles in general? Any decent player of those vehicles can easily wipe most of a team without worry, especially the su34 as it has the pantsir on its team.

Currently there are too many balance issues created by Gaijin’s implementation of the su34 vs the nerf that the Brimstones got for aircraft to be fairly played in ground battles.

Then there is the simple argument that ground vehicles cant be played in air battles (why cant we spawn ground vehicles near friendly bases to protect them) , so why are aircraft in ground battles?

41

Top tier has a major balancing issue vs CAS, because everyone should have gotten Pantsir level SPAA 2 years ago and by now everyone should have gotten even better.

But at all other BRs, CAS is pretty balanced imo. Was playing quite a bit 10.7ish recently and most SPAA are a threat to basically any CAS. Its pretty closed to balanced and below that, the balance favours the SPAA, with most “CAS” actually fairly under-powered and minimal threat, heck, by the time you get down to props. most tanks have MGs on their roofs which deal with CAS 80% of the time.

This argument has always been… wierd for me. Because there are ground vehicles in air battles, they are just controlled by AI, though outside of Sim, you can rarely actually attack them, and if you have ever played Sim. You would know that player controlled SPAA would be quite a major nerf for the SPAA we have to deal with.

Also, what other place is there for most CAS aircraft or helis? Is there really a decent RB gamemode for either? Not really. The argument could be made that for many CAS aircraft and the helis, there isnt a decent gamemode for them without having to play tanks. ARB is virtually DOA for anything that cant dogfight with the fighters and heli PvE is so trash, it barely works half the time.

So if you want to play a heli, or any number of CAS aircraft, like say a Jaguar, your only real option IS GRB, because the gameplay doesnt exist elsewhere for them. (unless you are willing to play air sim and few are, but that does nothing for helis) And you have to slog through playing tanks before you can play the aircraft you actually want to play. Half the reason I even bothered to grind top tier ground, is so that I had a chance to play the Apache in a decent gamemode, though the balance is so bad that the Apache is nearly unplayable.

1 Like
42

what? no xD thats quite a dramtic change of pace.
While i get what you mean, you have enough time to get over lock launch and ddodge the missile, you dont need to break lock to dodge the missile from the pantsir.

2 major nerfs? first it was just one nerf now two ? the fact it can carry 18 of the missiles which is 3 x as many as the other planes is not a nerf, it can stay up in the air for far longer and destroy substantially more targets, you literally proved that yourself with getting 10 ground kills with the EF2000, go try that in an F15E or Su34

Not really, i beat them with the mirage 2000 S4, its an insanely large, heavy air craft that pisses away a mountain of speed in manuevers, im not saying its bad but compared to the F15s, even the A , 16s, gripens, mirages, ef 2000s , rafales and even the F14s to an extent the su34 isnt that good a platform its main thing IS the ground attack capabilities.

gripen can only carry four at least as a balance method.
As for the F16C and other american cas at top tier, I have always said they are overly dominant and oppressive of the entire roster to a degree that is unbalanced.
When they added amraams, then the maverick “fix” made the F16 dominant, still is extremely dominant, even compared to the su34.

however be that as it may, the F16C is a far worse platform than the EF2000, its a gen 4.5 jet vs gen 4.

as i spit balled with you earlier if it got 6 FnF brims, and maybe a limited number of sal, so 6 more, giving it 12x in total it would be fine.

I dont agree with it being A historically nerfed, but i also dont agree with it getting FNF missiles in teh current GRB style-
As I’ve said I actually wish they didnt add any of these things to GRB and ground in general.

As for what youve told me of ASB I’d like to say then what I said earlier is irrelevant and it should be 18x FnF and any other Air sim replies I have made just ignore for the most part.

GRB is one of the most played if not the most played game mode unfortunately. While i wish it were more realistic it is what it is.
as for in air modes the thing being nerfed is quite daft.

before the typhoon and such dropped the su34 was somewhat irritating but since the introduction of the EF2000, rafale and such i genuinely rarely see them inGRB

43

yeah have more missile but for this “nerf” is capable to kill only one tanks in same time and afther this need totturn … spaas have much more time to destroy u… and others with tw,ir missiles fire all missile in 20 sec in diferent target and afther this fly back to arifield… sooo

44

Problem with “Real life Brimstones” would be fact they are radar guided. So your only chance at survival against those would be hugging a dead tank and hoping it will loose track. Where as most FnF weapons in game are either TV or IR quided so depending on the seaker foliage, ESS or smoke spook them.

Now this does not mean Gajin could not give Brimstones IR seeker to make it “temporary” FnF until more capable SAM system are in place.

1 Like
45

And if everyone had then we wouldnt be here, but you know how the snail like to pander it favor…

I agree, but this would still be the case in a separation of game modes as well, CAS would still be balanced in a combined arms mode.
And in just a ground vehicles only game mode, I understand how some nations have different vehicles that arent as good as others, especially in the lower BR ranges, but just as you have to do currently you have to play those vehicles differently. Running forward head on to the enemy in a vehicle with no armor is always gonna end in the same result CAS or no CAS.

CAS aircraft could still be played in the combined game mode, since you are correct that they are pretty much useless in plain air battles.

It would make lower tier CAS better in the combined mode I described as it would actually make the AA have to play close to their team to protect them instead of just sitting in spawn waiting for a fly over.

Helis i dont see an issue with them being used in ground battles as they can be countered (and you are correct in that there is no other decent game mode for them), if Gaijin adds in FnF weapons to helis though that may change.

Ive only tried sim a few times. Im not any good at it so i stay away from the game mode as not to bring my team down.

All im trying to get a cross is that the game would greatly benefit form letting air battles be for air, ground battles be for ground (I know that there are others like me in that Im no good at playing air, but I am decent at tanks so thats why I play ground), and add a combined game mode for people who want to play both.

1 Like
46

It has 2 major nerfs.

  1. It has no FnF
  2. Its limited to Brimstone 1

Typhoon NEVER used Brimstone 1s. By the time they were fitted to the Typhoon, Brimstone 2s had entered service. I dont see F-16Cs limited AGM-65As, so why should the Typhoon be limited to Brimstone 1s

Brimstone 2 entered service in 2015, Typhoon first fired the Brimstone in I think 2017.

and the F-15E can carry 20x GBU-39s. Which is more, I dont see what the problem is here. Last time I checked, AASM, KH-38s and AGM-65s were not SAL only. Su-39 had 16x Vikhrs vs Harrier Gr7 with only 4x AGM-65s, Why did no one freakout or complain about that? Why is it suddenly ONLY an issue when the balance favours non-US/USSR nations?

WITH PAVEWAY IVs. I barely used Brimstones. I actually kinda wish I was only running PW4s in that match, I had multiple targets survive a DH with a brimstone. I was only really running them as a bit of a trial, see if I actually liked them or not. At which point the F-15E actually is more powerful as it can carry 11x GBUs vs the Typhoons 10.

Conclusion btw. if im running the under wing AAMs, I would run 8x PW4s with 0 Brimstone 1s. If I dont need the extra AAMs, then I would run 8x PW4s and 6x Brimstone 1s, because 3x Brimstones are better than 1x PW4 but not 2. If we got Brimstone 2s then I would run more Brimstones, but I would still favour taking PW4s because they actually provide limited multi-target engagement. like in that match I was able to take out 2 and nearly a third guy as well, using the GNSS mode on them in a single run as they were sat still capping the zone

I really dont know why you are using my 10 kill GSB match, where i had 0 opposition, as an excuse for why the Typhoon must be nerfed. in that match, I would have gotten as many kills with the Tornado Gr1 dropping GBUs, I just would have had to RTB more often. As the F-15E actually carries MORE GBUs, than the Typhoon, then that means the F-15E should be nerfed.

and the F-16 was a far more dominant airframe than the Torando. And yet the Tornados got 0 buffs, in fact we had a number of MASSIVE nerfs for 18 months. I really dont see why the moment that ANY other nations besides the US or USSR gets something even slightly good, it must be nerfed. Instantly and harshly. Happened with the Gripen with the fake BOL nerfs and now its happening to the Typhoon with Brimstones.

AGAIN, WHERE HAVE I SAID THAT THEY MUST BE FNF.

Im one of the very few people semi-advocating for SAL-only to REMAIN in GRB for now. I jsut dont think we should be limited to Brimstone 1s in addition to SAL-only. Its rather unfair. Brismtone 2s with SAL only is a FAR closer balance to equivalents like the KH-38.

That being said. Its unfair for air modes being limited to SAL only, because who really cares about AI tanks, especially when GBU-39s exist anyway. So a solution that allows for FnF to balanced in GRB like exponetial SP past 6 Brimstones to soft-restrict the quantity advantage or gamemode specific loadout lockouts would work jsut as well,

Fairly certain Air is still the most played. but it drives me nuts just how much ground affects decisions made for aircraft. It would be like saying APS or ERA are not allowed on tanks because it affects CAS too much. Tankers would RIOT. But the other way round is no issue at all. Especially when not all aircraft are always played in ground modes.

1 Like
47

This is the other issue, but with the peformance of the IOG on the KH-38 and AASM. Im killed through smoke all the time. Its not guarantee of survival. I’ve also gotten CAS kills just by guiding a laser guided bomb through smoke before.

But plenty of ways to balance it, like just making it so that smoke does block MMW seekers. I dont think anyone would actualy complain about that for now.

3 Likes
48

Ground vehicles are pretty much “fish in a barrel” especially in the higher BR’s where CAS is mostly computer targeted\guided weapons.
APS doesnt really block much anyways, at least not that ive noticed
And ERA is only really effective on the russian vehicles, where the ERA by itself can stop a dart round with over 500mm of pen.