In naval AB you try to be more careful and every hit to your plane hurts.
That may uh… be because of how naval AA works, but I dont play naval.
plane, but the fighter instead of a bomber, because now the bomber gets so expensive it’s almost impossible to get this again.
'Cept you can reload, arent time limited (So you can take more time choosing targets, the lack of time is why people mess up their attack runs a lot), and fighters wont spawn on your tail.
spawn system it’s a moment where planes start popping up in the sky in big numbers, more than just 3 enemies at once
I prefer the steady stream AB offers, it means you can focus one and not be overwhelmed.
Anyways, crashing issue can be solved by making bombs not detonate/vanish if you crash.
But in ground AB you have more players closer together, and tanks have turret top guns etc, so maybe these could work as auto SPAA in naval. That’s also balancing thing.
But more importantly, as I said before, we can have opposite direction BR offset for aircraft, so for example when playing 4.0 you could only pick up planes up to 2.7 and when playing 5.3 you could pick up planes up to 4.0 etc.
But still in naval the fact that you have a lot of guns in one spot is somehow offsetting another difference from ground - that distances between units are more vast and thus it’s easy to pick a solo target and be far from other AA guns.
I can understand that, it does make a difference. Also another argument against naval plane spawn system could be that it introduces a phase were big chunk of the players stop playing tanks and go up in the air and now the ground has less people tanks to fight with, but this still happens even now without that the end of the match feels like that anyway.
not really - rockets and cannons will hit the target before you crash. Bombs maybe, but there’s a problem with deciding when it’s a yolo kamikaze run vs when you were chased down by interceptor that was unfairly spawned right on top of you and you’re making a last ditch effort to deliver the payload. Handling those kinds of thing fairly is hell lot of a rabbit holes where you need to have exceptions upon exceptions and it gets muddy as hell to understand when you’re getting the score and when not. So it’s not that simple.
But more importantly, as I said before, we can have opposite direction BR offset for aircraft, so for example when playing 4.0 you could only pick up planes up to 2.7 and when playing 5.3 you could pick up planes up to 4.0 etc.
Funnily enough its like the opposite of this atm (you can get A-10s at 7.7 in AB)
I can understand that, it does make a difference. Also another argument against naval plane spawn system could be that it introduces a phase were big chunk of the players stop playing tanks and go up in the air and now the ground has less people tanks to fight with, but this still happens even now without that the end of the match feels like that anyway.
True, but at least there is still tanks to kill then.
not really - rockets and cannons will hit the target before you crash. Bombs maybe, but there’s a problem with deciding when it’s a yolo kamikaze run vs when you were chased down by interceptor that was unfairly spawned right on top of you and you’re making a last ditch effort to deliver the payload. Handling those kinds of thing fairly is hell lot of a rabbit holes where you need to have exceptions upon exceptions and it gets muddy as hell to understand when you’re getting the score and when not. So it’s not that simple.
Err…because in my view it is your proposal that would “make the game worse” (destroy is far too strong) for others. I sincerely think that planes being counted as a spawn would be bad for AB…and past events dont make me think it could be correctly balanced. I think it would make air power worse and more dominant…they had a tought time managing it in Naval for instance.
BTW…i rarely play bombers…i am on PS5 and have no direct control to get a bomber…i usually play interceptor or escort…
I liked the change that no longer allows me to find open tops easily (on a fighter), even if it took a lot of kills that i used to get…made it harder but it feels fairer.
What we have now is closer to “pure tank” battles…i would prefer less airstrikes and some incentive to avoid suicide bombing than a major change in spawn. I am not the only one for sure…
Dot forget that AB is the “fast action” mode for those that want it…a too complex air mode will eventually displease a lot of AB fans…
So here we get to the core of the problem of discussing anything with you. I propose a change, you point out potential issue AS AN ARGUMENT AGAINST MY PROPOSED CHANGE based on assumptions that we can’t support with data (that people will or will not like it), I counter it with argument that there are ways to solve this issue, and then you bail out out this time and time again with “I just like the current state”.
If you’re showing the holes in someone else’s idea and state this as impossible to fix, think twice before you post about is it really unsolvable and be prepared that someone will counter it with some reasonable approach to fix it. But you keep showing those problems with assumption that they are unsolvable, so this goes to collection of your “solid arguments” supporting maintaining the status quo without engaging in constructive discussion about whether you’re right or not.
The thing with current air mission system is that it has two unsolvable problems. Changing it to naval AB-like plane spawn system will definitely have a lot of problems to be solved. The question is: can they be solved, even over time? We can have constructive discussion on this if we try to focus on finding the holes in the plan and figuring out if they can be solved. Otherwise it’s just going to be “I like this and you like that”
Holy shiet. So you don’t have easy ergonomic way to call out the bomber, so you barely play the bombers in the air mission. So you are defending a system that makes console players like you be the second category users when it comes to being able to use the feature to the fullest. I don’t know what this is? A Stockholm syndrome in small scale?
How do you feel qualified to discuss whether the current system is okay or not if you don’t actually have that much of experience of the whole system? I use all plane types a lot and I feel like I’m pretty qualified to have a solid opinion on the system. Just playing interceptors/escorts is not enough IMO.
Dumb idea, rendering most spaa utterly useless, daily and special tasks for spaa obsolete… stop crying and get better.
The better argument for this would be make cas harder to get but scout vehicles are just a dire t counter to that argument… so CaS stays or you get your own lame game mode with no CaS and get stomped by a e-100 and wondering when those bombers will come help xD
Despite the utter annoyance of CaS it is actually a balancing mechanic… and gives SPAA a purpose.
Guy…i dont think i ever said my arguments are better than yours. I simply prefer it AS IT IS and i actually explain why with what i assumed was constructive discussion. I can understand you would prefer otherwise and i can actually understand your arguments.
As a “theoretical” ideia, i would probably prefer your solution…BUT after i played the game a lot, including naval and RB i BELIEVE that the present system is better for AB (and its player base). I am NOT the owner of the truth and i can be wrong, of course.
SHORT version…i believe that having planes as spawn in AB would make them too strong (for good players) and/or make the system too complex to be effective (for typical AB players). I MAY BE WRONG.
I dont think the plane spawn issues are “unsolvable”, but i do believe that the team that is supposed to solve similar issues in RB and Naval struggled to do so. And at least in RB they are NOT solved. They have the problem that any solution will hardly please tank and plane fans…
SO i sometimes come into thus discussions defending “the devil we know”…i LIKE the present system BUT i also propose IMPROVEMENTS to it…that would potentially address your issues also…albeit i do agree that the solution is not easy also.
I played bombers a lot in the beginning and i still play when i get them. On a normal playing day i can use an attacker or bomber once or twice…so i have regular runs at it…but i opt to have much more fighter runs…and i like tanks more. I didn’t feel the need to explain this until now.
TBH i dont have so much fun making bomb runs these days…so i actually deleted a “keybind” i once had for bombers.
Since you brought this up…one thing i think AB DOES NOT need is “pro” players that spawn on a bomber, attacker or helicopter and try to keep it for long time doing several attack runs…this will make these planes much more dangerous and decisive IMHO. Good players on aircraft can be hard to counter…
I do believe that saying that THIS HAPPENS in RB and i would prefer not to have it in AB is a constructive argument.
In the end…it boild down to this^^
I defend what i think is better…you do the same…we dont have to agree.
I am just not sure why my opinion or arguments are less relevant than yours… some are based on facts, some are based on other game modes and YES, some are OPINION…but so are yours.
The issue of RB is that SPAA in the lower pre-radar tiers is not a deterrent. Once you have radar SPAA, magically there is a balance. The problem is that gaijin is ignoring the fact that that even before radars on SPAAs there were strategies for targeting moving aircraft, and especially those SPAAs with guns that had multiple crew should have something that gives you rough lead. And on top of that variance in depth perception on different types of screen and different quality settings on a flat screen makes it so that figuring out the direction the plane is going is really hard for newcomers. And if you want to have people manning SPAAs while you want to play tanks, SPAA work need to be reasonably easy to begin with - easy to learn, hard to master. But the SPAA curve in RB is nothing like that.
This is the flaw in your argument that it doesn’t work in RB so it won’t work in AB. In AB we’ve got lead indicator. And in Naval AB, the AA guns are actually a deterrent because getting your plane damaged is a penalty in contrast to GFAB where the plane is free.
Air Mission has these unsolvable issues:
Spawn layout and aircraft random selection has a significant impact on the outcome of the air mission. Assuming there’s a short limited time to decide who survives the first clash, you have to put the planes close together for the clash to even make sense. In other modes with planes you can decide when to engage, try not to engage, run away etc because you have a lot of time to roam around and make decision for yourself. But in air mission with the requirement for it all to happen in specific small time window, it’s unsolvable, you can’t do anything about it - even if you figure out some extremely tight balance, then the outcome would be that you don’t really feel what’s the difference in skill requirement between winning and losing this.
SPAAs and turret top-guns are not a deterrent - as long as there is no penalty for losing the aircraft, players won’t care about losing them, so they either ignore SPAAs or strafe right onto them. You also shouldn’t penalise players for losing the aircraft if the outcome is strongly affected by initial clash in the air, because deciding when to penalise player and when to not penalise will be really hard. If for example you are crippled by the interceptor, but it gets killed, so theoretically you have a clear bombing run, but you have tail that forces you to strafe or you’re going down, and then SPAA takes you down near the ground - should you be penalised for it? If you’re dropping bombs luckily even when going down, but you crash before they explode because of the forced fuse time - should there be penalty such as not killing anyone with those bombs because you died earlier?
There would be an option to run a clash between teams first, when both sides are in fighters and then the winning side gets CAS given to the surviving players, so you’re getting new planes with full health without interceptors on your tail, but it requires more time, unless you make it so that one fighter clash happens when a CAS run from the previous air mission is already happening, but it would mean there are 3 players out of the ground battle on one side doing the air clash while the other side has a bomber or few bombers/CAS. or it takes twice as much time, but less runs. For me it’s an unsolvable problem if we want the air mission to be quick because if you want the clash of fighters to be quick as well, then we’re back to square one with deciding through spawn layout and which planes you are given.
This happens in RB because there’s no aircraft lead indicator for players using SPAA. Let everyone participate in hunting the aircraft with they have turret-top guns and you’ll have similar effect to naval AB because vehicles are more concentrated. Make it so that planes only see what your team on the ground can see and it will be even more lethal to get close.
RB has the problem of wanting to be so realistic that they forget what was the reason for SPAA to exist and not trying to figure out how to make that happen so it works as it historically worked. And also the git-gud attitude towards ground players keeping the status quo because this sells premium planes… So comparing RB to AB without taking this issue into account will be flawed.
You didn’t get my point here. I’m not arguing whether your arguments are right or wrong. What I’m annoyed with you is that you keep throwing arguments that supposed are holes in my ideas, get explanation why those aren’t that big of a holes because they can be fixed, and then you fall back to “but I just like the current system better”. Either be constructive and explain to me why my counter doesn’t work, or stop throwing random arguments that you then don’t defend or don’t accept that you were wrong, jus so you can say that you have arguments to support the current implementation.
Agreed, but again - you’re only looking at transferring 1:1 current implementation from RB or Naval AB WITH the corresponding balance which doesn’t make sense. Of course initially there would be a problem and there would need to be balance tweaks. But they won’t roll out a balance breaking change without other additional fixes. That’s what are testing servers for that internal, and the ones that are public before the release of the patch. So with that said, there are other ways that can balance this - we will get separate BRs for planes from the air modes for this, naval plane spawn system has a BR offset and it can be in opposite direction, so forcing significantly lower BR for balance. Force planes to start at the airfield or low at the airfield, even bombers and force them to go somewhere to reload. Make heavy bombers cost ton of spawn points if they want to take huge payload - scaling up amount of spawn points based on the amount of payload is also a possibility - imagine AU-1 and few similar otherwise - it’s a strike aircraft, but has a payload of medium bomber.
So there are ways to counter it, but you’re assuming that if we do this change, we’ll get the single change and that’s all. And know that - there are intelligent people on gaijin side that don’t want it to be broken more than us, so if we want such system to a point they will try to implement it, they will have to figure out those additional balancing tweaks similarly to how now they are trying with removal of the markers and such. Now it takes ages because changes on living organism are risky, but if they decide to do a big makeover, they have no choice but test as much as possible internally and try to release as much as possible at once if it will most likely break the balance if only core of the system gets changed.
Just make them expensive as hell type of payload similarly to the issue of AU-1/AM-1 etc where you have a plane with payload comparable to medium bomber.
There are tanks that can one hit things as well and have to reload long after that, so I wouldn’t say that they should be gone. But there’s both the payload cost and BR for specifically ground AB, so I wouldn’t take that away.
But in air mission - yeah, there’s no “more expensive” thing apart from 3 points for the bomber, so there’s no way to limit this apart from pushing the plane with it to higher tiers.
Ive suggested a random amount of plane spawns. The more a team loses the better odds at planes.
As well as limiting heavy tanks, medium tanks and tank destroyers.
There wasn’t an unlimited amount of these units. they were pretty rare
I know, I know, there are going to be more than a few who think Ground Arcade should have air/CAS. I am not one of them.
If I want to fly then I am going to fly in AAB or ARB. If you want to fly do the same, just don’t ruin it for those who want to play ground.
I have heard the opinion that it should be part of GAB yet we do not see tanks in AAB do we? I have heard that it is for the “realism”.
Is it? How many actual infantrymen do you know also fly combat aircraft? Pilots fight in tanks? Anyone?
Yeah, lets stop using “realism” as an excuse.
I have also heard those who don’t want actual realism say: “Have a solution!”
Ok, if you want a solution I have one, specifically directed to those who think CAS in GAB adds to realism:
AI AA and SPAA. Top notch AI such as the AA that protects the airfields. Rings of AI AA that follow the front as it progresses. Upper tiers that have jets? Missile AA that actually acts like IRL AA, not the nerfed AA in the game.
Then: Since there are no tankers that pilot combat aircraft then once you strap on that plane you are now a pilot for the rest of the map.
All planes spawn on ground and minimum 20 K away from battle space.
Did I forget the AI CAP? Yeah, so if you want to drop bombs you must first have the area cleared of not only AA but also CAP. IOW, you have to earn the ability to drop on tanks by first fighting to gain the airspace above the battle. If you fail, well…You made the choice to fight in GAB with a plane, live with it. Or go to AAB and fly there.
We won’t talk about how OP German vehicles are in the middle tiers…
Yes, I agree, if I want to play purely tank battles, then there shouldn’t be any planes there, it’s called GROUND TANK BATTLE, not mixed, and yes, they also want planes to go to hell from tank battles. Then it’s not purely about tank battles!
No it isn’t - it is called Ground Battles - tanks are not mentioned in the title, and the planes are there to pound the ground so are entirely appropriate :)
Not a problem, as long as players don’t hop from tank to plane to tank again? Or planes have to fly from an airfield away from the battle, fight their way in and then face AI AA appropriate for the BR?
I mean, at least make it as easy to kill a plane as it is for a plane to spawn, drop bombs then J out without any worry about using a life. Right?