So most of the people reading this know about the APHE rework that gaijin presented but was rejected by the community. While APHE rework allowed bigger realism with the spread of spalling in the shape of a cone.
But we also have rounds like APCR or HESH being unreliable at the moment and finding themselves being avoided so I ask.
What rounds would need a rework and how would you rework them?
7 Likes
they all need a rework, APHE overperforms, APDS/APCR underperforms, HESH is non functional, HEAT depends on the tank even if its the same shell its different
7 Likes
HVAP needs a rework as well since it just shatters on ynything and everything
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HVAP is (at least in game) just APCR. its modelled off of smaller core rather low quality soviet autocanon offerings making every tank, AFV or strike craft with the shot quite hopeless.
Shatter is far too common on shells that suffer the mechanic when early AP shells and all APHE doesn’t get the mechanic when they were far more prone to shatterings than even some early sabot shot
4 Likes
As other people have said, basically every shell needs a rework. I think hesh is the biggest offender as really it should be a better HE (in certain situations obviously, not in all) but I don’t believe it’s very modelled at all. There are a lot of very inconsistent shells which need to be reworked urgently, but I think all should get looked at.
the sad thing is that we have had times during WT’s history where these rounds were functional, if not great. There was an explicit choice made to nerf tanks that were already mediocre. When the Centurion AVRE came out, it was great to the point of maybe needing a BR bump. Then they nerfed all HESH into oblivion and its never been functional since.
APCR used to be a viable round type, with spalling performance on thick armor near equivalent to AP (on light targets it was still bad). Nope, now it stops on the first crewman it hits after penning any quantity of armor.
APDS has been up and down and up and down since brit tanks were added. Its not even in that bad of a place right now, the best tank that use it have just been upteired so much that they barely function. Remember, the centurion mk3 used to be 6.7.
8 Likes
As other colleagues have said, absolutely all bullets need optimization, improving the damage of all of them and giving the APHE a realistic damage cone. The damage model is by far the biggest mistake the game has, and it seems that the developers either don’t know how or don’t want to fix it.
2 Likes
Also plate armor angle effect is overpowering against AP shells in general, historical and simulation evidence shows that very clearly. Things like the US 90mm should be able to punch through the ufp of a panther and german 128mm and american 120mm should be able to go through the ufp of t44 and 54 at 500m easily
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And don’t forget, the entire way capped vs uncapped AP shells are modeled. The way it is in game, capped shells are always better, especially against angled armor, which does not in any way reflect reality. The M103 should be blowing through the front of the IS-3 with its AP but it fails to even pen a T-54 most of the time.
3 Likes
H.V.A.P. needs massive reworking.
Like imagine shell shatter on a Weisel with the 76 mm H.V.A.P. on the T92 point blank… Side on.
The stock grind for tanks that start with H.V.A.P.
as their stock shell makes me depressed.
I thought the same, but it turns out that’s not the case. In reality, capped ammunition primarily serves to prevent bullet tips from breaking when hitting armor ranging from 0° to 30°, but is worse against sloped armor. Therefore, in the game, the advantage of capping would be when shooting at tanks with armor with a heat-treated frontal layer, or at least with multiple layers, such as having added tracks, or a highly hardened armor shell like the Pz3J, but primarily serving from 0° to 30°. Against armor of more than 40º, AP was better than APC. The American 90mm cannon could penetrate the Panther at almost 900 meters with the T33 AP ammunition, while with the APC it could only do so at about 300 meters. Also keep in mind that more modern American tanks and designed to face tanks with sloped armor used APBC ammunition, leaving aside APCs, such as the M41, M47, M48 or M103.
1 Like
All of them; especially APFSDS with rod-shatter.
Solid shot need more spalling.
HESH is really a 1-shot kill against anything that isn’t spaced or composite, the shockwave inside the tank will kill everyone, and completely deafen for life if it’s a small caliber not enough to kill.
APCR needs a bit more spall, it’s really bad right now, but that’s the negative of having a tiny round go really fast.
APHE needs a realistic cone.
ATGM’s need a bit of a rework, like the TOW-2B and TOW’s got a bit back.
HE is good as is though…
2 Likes
HE shock wave needs to stop magically going through bulkheads or through the entire vehicle in the case of an open top vehicles if the hit wasn’t at where the vehicle opening is
No, that’s right, an explosive shockwave will cause an increase in pressure in the vehicle due to the shockwaves around and above the vehicle.
This isn’t true. It is scabbing that kills people and does damage - not a shockwave.
The scabbing is entirely physical - particles fired off the back of the plate due to said shockwave bouncing back from it. Without the scabbing the shockwave does nothing except make a dent in the plate.
HESH has a penetration limit for significant scabbing and that is 1.3 times the calibre of the shell - eg see Tank Archives: 120 mm HESH vs 125 mm HE
Note that the 160mm plate had a big dent but no scabbing.
Against very thin armour that doesn’t have enough resistance to make the HESH flatten it just smashes straight through!
Deafening anyone from the bang is probably no different from HE exploding in contact outside - the link above says the effect of 120mm HESH vs composite armour is about the same as 125mm HE vs the same.
If the armour is thin enough and the shell has a big enough explosive charge then it will just cave the armour in regardless of open top or not.
In terms of AP and APHE - I’d like to see a minor difference - APHE gets about 10% more spalling, AP gets about 5% more penetration - and that’s all.
HVAP/APDS/APCR are all limit cases of AP solid shot - the spalling from all penetrations should be related to the remaining energy in the shot, and how much armour it displaces when penetrating - sub-calibre will displace less volume of armour, but at the ranges they should be used should give a lot more energy to that spalling.
APCR is probably the most correct it’ll ever be.
HESH is functioning within the limits of overpressure. Overpressure needs more refining and HESH will be better off for it.
Shell shattering is deterministic and based on armor angling and spaced armor existing.
crazy how western community didnt care about rework while russian community united players to vote against it. Very poor move from the inclusive west to stop german and russian shit from dominating the low tier because of low reliance on skill
How cruel, haha.
I really don’t know what the reasons were for so many people to vote against the APHE rework test. I imagine some because it’s a continuation of something that’s garbage but they’ve gotten used to it. Others because it takes away the way to get a lot of extremely easy kills. And others, using the excuse of the supposedly perfect balance the game has thanks to the APHE’s nature.
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Overpressure is so unrealistic it’s not even funny. It needs to be toned down dramatically.
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I think you misunderstood, im saying how it is in game, IS NOT reality. Because you are indeed correct.