APHE For Churchill Mk7

Well it’s the same exact shell, but without explosive filler.

Or keep things like they were actually used? It is part of what makes Britiain a unique experience. Yea, it’s harder to use than APHE, so what? Again, focusing on making solid shot AP a more workable ammo type would be better overall than adding explosive rounds for a country thay didn’t use them.

Yes, a lot of us care. The Sherman II should lose that round as well, that’d be even better, in fact. There’s never a good argument to lower realism even further.

If it can’t hack it at that BR it’ll be lowered eventually.

Yes, a lot of us care. The Sherman II should lose that round as well, that’d be even better, in fact.

How about we remove all Swedish or Israeli vehicle under 8.0BR then. It’s not realistic to have multiple Maus in the same match. Like half of the vehicles in the game were never used in combat so we shouls restrict them too.

There’s never a good argument to lower realism even further.

Balance is always more important than realism.

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It is part of what makes Britiain a unique experience. Yea, it’s harder to use than APHE, so what?

Correction: It is part of what Britain a bad experience.

It would be easy to fix all tanks that have this gun by giving them access to APHE.

adding explosive rounds for a country thay didn’t use them

They had access to APHE. A lot of tanks weren’t used by their country yet they were added to the game.

Britain REMOVED the HE filler from the US rounds they received. Remember when I said that? M61 SHELL and M61 SHOT. Same round, except Britain only used the M61 Shot.
Also, do tell me which vehicles in the Great Britain tech tree that fly the British flag in the background of the vehicle card weren’t used by Britain.

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience with Britain’s vehicles. Not every nation’s vehicles are for every player.

Nothing needs fixing in this situation other than the post pen damage profile of solid shot AP and the correction of APHE’s spherical damage.

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Indeed - IMO, relative to each other, APHE should get perhaps 10% more fragments, and AP 10% more penetration… that would be enough of a tradeoff.

I care. Just because something is possible, doesn’t mean it should be changed when it’s not historical.
Britain didn’t use APHE rounds during WW2 for their guns, so why should they start using them just because a video games makes APHE rounds kill tanks much more efficently?

It’s obviously a problem witht the gameplay and the implementation of APHE and penetrations in general. More than 50% of the time an APHE shell wouldn’t explode inside a tank, simply because the fuze failed or the round didn’t even enter the tank, since the shell ricochet away, only causing spalling.

There’s tons of simulation on Youtube that showcase how unlikely it is for an APHE shell to ever detonate inside a vehicle, even without considering the failure rate of APHE fuzes against armor plates at an angle.

In a way, the way APHE works in-game is kinda how the designers imagined the performance.
Instead of a solid slug, the shell bursts, causing more damage on the inside.

That might work well with bunkers, so it makes sense to have large filler on guns that aren’t primarely designed as AT guns, but is generally a waste of time and resources.

APHE should just not function when striking armor of a certain thickness and instead just break-up like solid shot. The more APHE filler, the lower the threshold.

Then again, it shouldn’t really make much of a difference, whether a tank is hit by M61 APHE or M61 solid shot.

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I think nerfing APHE is better. Tanks irl rarely get one shot if you look at tank v tank footage. Most of the time requires 2-3 shots to fully disable them.

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It really depends on what happens. If a shell brains your loader, you’re not gonna sit around usually and bail out. WT is poor for solid shot AP because you have to kill 4/5 crew members because every single crew member in WT is a diehard berserker willing to fight to the bitter end.

Also gaijin doesn’t model the ricochets that would happen from any round penetration the compartment. They also don’t model turret rings buckling, optics mattering and a great many things. This is not a sim but a game, this can be seen with how gaijin pick and chose what they add and where. The British never issued aphe, however the cannon could and would have used aphe if they couldn’t find anything else. If they had to they would use it however as someone has said back then and even now aphe rounds were never reliable. In terms of the Russians they literaly were never reliable as just like their tanks they were over hardened and shattered on pretty much anything. But gaijin will never model half of this. All I want is for solid shot and aphe to be similar in damage as they were irl, both creating cones of fragmentation forward into the tank. Aphe creating more spall where as with solid shot it has more pen on average. If gaijin ever want to add the rng of the fire going off then go ahead but intill then they need to balance out using a round that has the exact same pen but all the drawbacks. In reality the British 75mm was known to fair better against tigers because it had slightly better pen giving it more room to pen the upper front plate. Even if they only make it 110mm like how it used to be, it would help tremendously against tanks such as the t34 1941 mod where rn the turret is impenetrable because it takes away all spall created from the round.

What a given nation chose to use or not use at X or Y time in history is irrelevant; all that matters is whether thing can physically do something. Technical realism, not doctrine.

That being said… I am firmly against the Churchill VII getting APHE. All it would accomplish is raising the BR of one of the only well-placed heavy tanks in the game.


If APHE gets properly fixed to produce cones instead of spheres, bringing it closer in performance to solid shot, and thus not raising the Churchill’s BR if given APHE, then in that case I would be in favour.

APHE is fine the way it is. Post pen needs to be more lethal than IRL due to your crew not having to worry about dying. No real crewman would stay inside a tank after just witnessing 200g of tnt explode a few meters away from them. APHE postpen doesn’t need to be realistic because your crew isn’t either.

All it would accomplish is raising the BR of one of the only well-placed heavy tanks in the game.

It’s not fun even in a downtier you won’t get kills. You can only oneshot tanks if you center mass but that’s impossible with a weak gun like this that has to hit weakspots. Give it APHE and raise it to 5.0 to fit in with the T-14, KV-1C and KV-85.

Never used aphe so it cant be added

Britain didn’t use APHE rounds during WW2 for their guns, so why should they start using them

Half of the tanks in game weren’t used by their countries.

just because a video games makes APHE rounds kill tanks much more efficently?

They should allow the usage of APHE in the game because it is a game.

More than 50% of the time an APHE shell wouldn’t explode inside a tank, simply because the fuze failed

Depends entirely on the round and the tank fired at. Even then a 50% chance of having a hand grenade go off near you is more lethal than a 0% chance.

or the round didn’t even enter the tank

On a nonpen in will create less spalling inside the tank but that’s not modeled for APHE or AP.

since the shell ricochet away

Can happen to AP rounds too.

In a way, the way APHE works in-game is kinda how the designers imagined the performance.

It’s simplified for gameplay to have different rounds with different purposes. The fucked up when they gave AP less pen than APHE.

Then again, it shouldn’t really make much of a difference, whether a tank is hit by M61 APHE or M61 solid shot.

Solid shot isn’t as lethal as you think it is. Tank crews will likely bail out as soon as their tank is penetrated by AP but if penetration is followed by an explosion the crew will be incapacitated every single time.

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Regular GB users just know using Heavies in a full uptier is a poor move. People get too used to the hand holding and suddenly realise the situation for minor nations.

Keep as is because APHE would raise its BR making its lack of mobility and not as strong armour as you think (APHE just needs to hit 1/4 of the track from the front for a OHK, of lower BR) even worse.

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Japan never even built the Ho-Ri production and it got added. Russia never used their Object tanks and they get added from time to time. America didn’t use the T1E1 or M4/T26 and they got added.

If it never got to the point that it fits the addition rules, it should be removed.

But were they built?

This is also a topic about rounds not vehicles.

To be honest, this is a point I very much differentiate from a lot of people on.

Personally, I think APHE is fine how it is, at least in principle. The main issue I have at the moment is there is no advantage that solid AP really has over it- not really in pen, nor in damage. Imo the rounds should differ as such-

Solid AP/APC/APBC/APCBC:
Generally slightly better pen then APHE, and more damage inside their spall cone.

APHE/APHEC/APHCBC/APHECBC:
Overall slightly less pen then solid AP, but having its current ‘sphere of death’, as many call it. Damage is slightly less then solid AP, but with, again, the sphere of death.

APDS:
What it currently is, but buffed damage inside its spall cone, but not to the level of solid AP. Reduced chances to shatter, though.

APCR:
Roughly the same post-pen as APDS, but worse angle pen and overall pen. Still high pen, basically the specialty round you have when you need to punch through a heavy’s armor.

HEAT/HEAT-FS:
High pen, and high damage on anything the jet actually touches (i.e. ammo, crew, etc.) Very good at starting fires and cooking off ammo.

HESH:
Extremely good against angles, and thick armor in general. Would have a chance to overpressure, around the same as HE, but within a smaller radius.

HE:
Basically same as current, haha 155mm big boom.

APFSDS:
No idea, because I admittedly dont have it yet, and so cant really speak about it.

And now just for the memes:

Shrapnel:
Against non-closed tops its the same as current, but if it pens a closed-top viecle it dies instantly. Cause this round sucks otherwise lol.

Yeah, this isnt realistic, but I have never been a subscriber to WT having to be ultra-realistic. Where rounds post-pen damage is concerned, I think balance and round variety are more important- if APHE was just slightly worse pen, slightly better damage AP, there wouldnt be very much variety nor difference between. I like how APHE atm is radically different then AP in its post-pen damage, but I do think AP needs better post-pen. In the end, its a game, not a hardcore simulator, and I think it should be treated as such.

Simple ap rounds and aphe round irl had similar spall properties, both creating the cone of death with aphe creating more shrapnel. But due to tanks being as I closed as they are having more shrapnel go in a similar cone didn’t mean much as both would destroy everything in their path. Aphe being brought down to this whole ap getting a buff to this level would then require everyone to sim for crew, however it wouldn’t be nearly as bad as ap is rn as simply aiming for the turret would still produce a similar effect. The only difference being that aphe users wouldn’t be able to just sim for centre mass on most tanks now as it may not kill everyone but will most likely injure them at least.

With apds and apcr, both rounds irl were shown to produce spall on the level of a normal ap round of the same calibre. So a 17pdr sabot would produce similar spall to a 17pdr ap round. Only difference between apcr and apds irl is that apds had more pen while apcr was a lot more accurate.

Heat causes molten shrapnel to be sent into the fighting compartment, so in game as it is it’s actually pretty realistic however maybe a slightly wider spall cone would be welcome. But it would also cause a lot of tanks with heat to be moved up.

HESH in game is fucked. Sure it was a little op when it was first introduced but gaijin did a gaijin and skipped steps 1 through 10 and went right to making it usless. What it needs is the ability to produce an he effect while it’s hesh effect is active. After that maybe buff its ability to ignore bushes and small prices of metal as irl it would have either simply deformed them out the way or split the explosive mass on either side still getting it’s intended effect.

Apfsds is just fun stabilised apds with a much longer dart so it should still be acting as 105, 120 and 125 ap rounds going through the tank. Which not all of the apfsds rounds are acting like rn. L27 for one still acts as if it’s apds although it is missing almost a kg of mass still. Should be 5.6 but is something like 4.8kg in game.

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