Allow Bushes to be Turned Off in Graphics

[LiteralStone-psn]

I understand where you’re coming from but can’t support this suggestion of removing other players shrubbery.

Ideally new players will have the same impression it gave me when I first started playing WT. Learn, improve, adapt and overcome. Been playing for over a year and still learning things in this game. Mostly GF AB but will be jumping into GF RB now that I’ve learned a few things. Not expecting RB to be easy but that is part of the process and I’m up for the challenges and experiences a new mode brings. Eventually I try my hand at flying aircraft which will bring a completely different experience. Again, not expecting it to be easy.

This mentality of some people that “it should be easy for me so who cares how it impacts other players” displays a weakness and a sense of entitlement in those individuals. Unfortunately this fragile mentality seems to be prevalent in not all but a part of the younger generation. Participation trophies for all!

If new players aren’t willing to face the challenges and difficulties this game has then maybe WT isn’t the game for them.

[shangxiang]

200% agree.

[Aegis270]

Hard agree. Ground RB is a skill based competitive game, for the most part. Some of the most important skills are spotting tanks, identifying tanks, and then using that knowledge to place your shot well to counter your enemies armor advantage. Aside from positioning, this is probably the most important skillset you can have. It’s what allows a skilled player to outplay their opponent in a straight 1v1. You can know what they can do, and play accordingly.

Unless one player is bushed. In which case, odds are every single one of those skills becomes entirely meaningless. You cannot spot a target in a forest if they’re just a collection of bushes. You cannot ID a target if they’re just a collection of bushes. And even if you do manage to spot and ID them, you cannot aim for weakspots if you don’t know where they are.

Effectively, they dumb gameplay down. Relevant skills, which have been cultivated through learning and careful play, become secondary to whoever is bushed up more effectively.

Imagine an analogue in Air RB, where players could grind or outright buy an item that would render them practically immune to spotting, and completely concealed what plane they were in. How do you counter a plane if you don’t know what it is, and therefore don’t know what advantages you have over it? You’d end up trying to unwittingly outturn Zeros and outclimb BF 109s. This would be completely unacceptible. Why do we accept in in Ground RB, even if theoretically every player can use it?

I don’t want it gone because it’s pay to win (As it isn’t, technically), I want it gone because it dumbs down the gameplay and makes skill irrelevant.

[shangxiang]

IRL, tank crew try to camouflages there tanks…, Deal with it …

Spot that before they firing x)

Make a good camouflage on your tank in game is also a skill, specialy if you play with gunner optic view.

[Godvana]

In these images the tanks are stationary, either to act in ambush or to hide from aerial reconnaissance. As soon as they move and begin to perform manoeuvres the branches will fall off, something which does not happen in game.

[shangxiang]

Here he move:

And here he move too:

And here:

And again here…

Yeah, you are right, massive bushes camouflage it is only when they stopped…

[Aegis270]

Not sure you’re making a strong point here. Yes, IRL tanks could be bushed up to the eyeballs. But they could also do hundreds of other things to give themselves an advantage, not implemented in game because doing so would make gameplay worse.

You don’t have to deal with infantry support, artillery fire anywhere near the scale or effect of IRL, being outnumbered, or being jumped while your tanks are not combat ready. You don’t have to worry about your tank breaking down, or running out of fuel due to limited fuel supplies. You don’t have to worry about only the Allies having any air support for their late WW2 lineups. You don’t have to worry about the enemies starting on highly advantageous terrain that you have to somehow assault.

All of these things make War Thunder unrealistic, but they also make it fun. Gameplay should alway trump realism when the two are in conflict. Bushes may be (somewhat) realistic, but they make gameplay worse. And so there should be an option to not render them.

By the way, note that in every photo you posted, the tank that’s bushed up is clearly identifiable (And in the M48’s case, has it’s weakspot showing). Compare that to the magic floating bush nonsense you can pull off in game which turns a tank into an indistinct wall of bushes.

[GracingLily]

I completely agree with you. Personally, I find ground realistic mode to be a tough and challenging game mode that most players have mastered through trial and error. While it may appear logical to provide the ability to hide bushes from view as a fair and newbie-friendly option, keep in mind that many other factors affect and offer those “little advantages” as well.

1. What about crew levels? They are very important, especially when it comes to repair and reloading time.
2. What about the free, but kill-based, unlocked camouflage skins? Certain camouflage skins, when used right, blend in well with the match’s environment.
3. What about the modules? There is a substantial difference in performance between stock and spade vehicles.
4. What about BR? Nobody wants to fight against a vehicle a full BR higher (do you want to take on the Tiger II H in your T-34-85?).

As many can see, the list of elements that provide a minor edge over one another is endless. While I agree that some of these factors can provide “small advantages” at times, I also believe that it is precisely these elements that make this game so dynamic.

So, the question is, how far are players ready to go in terms of “presumed balance” to ensure fairness amongst participants in ground realistic mode? Turn off crew levels? Turn off camouflage skins? Turn off vehicle modules? Or just turn off everything, to the point where every single player has identical crew skills, vehicle skins, vehicle modules, and the exact same tank? In that instance, that player has completely missed the essence of playing in a ground realistic mode.

[Aegis270]

1. Crew skills give an edge, but it’s not an insurmountable one. Give a less skilled player a higher level crew, and a more skilled player a stock one, odds are still good the better player wins. A slight buff to reloads, a saving grace against bad shots, and the ability to recrew and repair faster will not outmatch a better placed shot, a better positioned tank, or a better application of game knowledge. It lessens the skill gap, but player skills will overcome crew skills 9/10 times.

2. It may help them blend in slightly, but it doesn’t break up the silohette. A tank still looks like a tank. Just a beige tank on a beige background. An experienced player will still spot one, especially if positioned predictably, or poorly.

3. The game would be better if stock tanks weren’t a thing (especially certain elements, like stock APCR/HEAT, inability to repair, etc, but it being the cornerstone of the game’s economic model, it’s not going anywhere, and it’s foolish to think it might. It’s a bit of a false comparison to adding an option that merely disables the rendering of bushes. That’s not depriving Gaijin of anything but a few bushs sales.

4. The game would improve from a tighter MM spread if feasible (I don’t have the queue numbers, so I can’t say for sure), but at the end of the day, you can play around it. It requires skill to overcome a Tiger II in a Hellcat, and that’s a good thing. It’s rewarding the player who positioned better, who knew the map well enough to get a flank shot, who knew to hold their fire until the Tiger II gave them a good angle. Conversely, bushes reward the player who has bushes, and prevents a more experienced player from utilizing the skills they have learned to win the engagement.

[GracingLily]

@Aegis270

Give a less skilled player a higher level crew, and a more skilled player a stock one, odds are still good the better player wins.

This is a very hypothetical scenario, but in matches, experienced players often have a higher-level crew than less experienced players, thus widening the skill gap. In my opinion, this plays a bigger role in winning engagements overall than covering the tank with bushes.

@Aegis270

Conversely, bushes reward the player who has bushes, and prevents a more experienced player from utilizing the skills they have learned to win the engagement.

The bushes are never behind a strict paywall. They break as much silhouette as the bush size allows. In higher BR, where tanks are increased in size, bushes do not play much of a role in breaking tank silhouette but rather in the coverage of weak spots to make it harder to hit. With the current bushes options, in order to break the tank silhouette effectively to the point where it is unrecognizable, you have to apply multiple “different color/type bushes” at the front. This in fact allowed me, or just any experienced player, to have an easier time recognizing the tank (imagine looking at a tank covered in multi-colored palm/fir/weed leaves from a distance on a winter map; you can hardly miss that one).

[Aegis270]

My argument isn’t nessesarily that bushes are the single most unbalanced thing in the game. That’s an impossible argument. I’m arguing simply that bushes, rather than adding skillful gameplay, or at minimum allowing a way to play around them, simply remove gameplay. They dumb the game down and make player skill less important in a fight. It doesn’t matter if I know the weakspot of the T26E5 are the hull hatches if I can’t see them. It doesn’t matter if I can identify every single tank within a BR range when I’m staring at a bush.

And for the record, much like with stock grinding, the game would probably be improved via the removal or the drastic speeding up of crew training, but in Gaijin’s grindcentric economic model, it’s impossible.

You’re conveniently forgetting the infamous 6 pack of bushes, which are pay to win and can completely cover a tank with completely innocuous looking bushes. But that’s not nessesarily relevant to my argument.

Bushes can make you more conspicuous on certain maps, but A) you have to manually set up bushes on a winter camo for that to happen and B) they do still allow you to conceal the type of tank and/or the weakspots. Which is often just as impactful or moreso.

Doesn’t matter if I can see a KV-1B thanks to his bushes on a snow map, if I cannot then take aim for the bottom half of his driver’s port or the tiny gaps in his armor. It doesn’t matter if I guess that a tank is probably an Abrams if I can’t get a clean shot into his turret ring. And if my shot lands wrong, because I had to take a blind guess at a tank or a weakspot, my penalty is usually death. For failing to have psychic powers. Replay that engagement where I can actually see what I’m engaging and therefore what I’m aiming at, it comes down to my skill in picking out a weakspot and hitting it accurately. Tell me that bushes improved my gameplay experience.

[CoffeeBean100]

A skillful player avoids bush placement by shooting from the sides or rear.

I look forward to the reversion from all the face banging lemming trains.

There is much more luck than “skill” (press fire button?) in GF and believing most “opponents” give some sort of challenge is questionable at best since this is an open game.

Edit: sorry @Aegis270, clicked wrong reply button as is a general reply, not one focused on you.

[Aegis270]

I don’t mind the reply, it is a counterargument.

So to be clear, your answer to bushes is to never engage enemy tanks frontally? Under no circumstances?

What if you’re in a tank unsuited for flanking? What if you run into an enemy tank on the same flanking route you’re on? What if an enemy reacts to your flank and pushes you? What if you get outflanked? What if you need to push a cap point to win the game?

Feels a little reductive to just say “Don’t engage them frontally” when there are so many ways for that to happen that aren’t up to you.

[MiG_23M]

Bushes are free in-game if you decide to do the objectives and tasks.
You do not need to be a wallet warrior to earn bushes.

[CoffeeBean100]

@Aegis270

So to be clear, your answer to bushes is to never engage enemy tanks frontally? Under no circumstances?

No, I’m saying many of the times the front is not the only part you will face.

No tanks are unsuitable for using flanks since many maps are quite small, just easy to flank as most players yolo one part of the map; hence the luck part. I’ve even flanked in the Tortoise.

Which moves to your next queries which I answer with: I hope the enemy do; it shows players are back to playing the game and not just headbutting W. But yes, many circumstances can exist but there are usually multiple ways to navigate them, and the fact there is “team” and a reasonable range of options (push together, arti to scare, airplanes to attack, smoke to try and distract, etc.).

@Aegis270

Feels a little reductive to just say “Don’t engage them frontally” when there are so many ways for that to happen that aren’t up to you.

Yes I agree, but it is also worsening the game where most matches I’ve seen involve a lack of thought meaning most engagements for them is frontal where it need not.

Very very rarely will you meet a true bush monster (not including some of the tiny vehicles) as very few in comparison have that option of 6 packs. Bushes are linked to camos and so in one map it might help them, in another they make themselves obvious. Heck, if they really annoy you the game lets you revenge bomb them, where those bushes will not help at all.

Anaecdotal but on my first run in the SU-57 (on release so higher BR) there was a squad of 3 bushed KV-1Bs murdering my team (all frontal smacking). So I trundled to the side by 20 metres, shot two in the sides then followed the “leader” and turret ringed him (not very quick at communicating).

The issue is they exist, to “remove” (options to see) then causes issues to compensate those who grinded them (Had all but 1 before the new lot came in recently).

They are an advantage, but not always that much of one, can be a hinderance (making vehicle obvious or blocked views), and we all can have exactly the same if you put the time in (same with crew skills etc etc). 6 packs were a mistake and if they hadn’t added such features we wouldn’t miss them, but they exist so we make the best of it.

I always liked the idea gunfire/bombs/fire would remove them in battles, but I’m sure there are technical/sync issues.

[Dupxo7]

Ahh ok, and this “bush camouflage” was undestructible taht even flamethrower couldn’t burn it? And it was only accessible to crews that paid real money for this? The answers are 2xNO, so your argument is invalid. If i can’t destroy it so it should be option in graphic settings to turn it off.

[Miragen]

Hilarious how people always say it’s just cosmetic but then you suggest a toggle for it and suddenly it’s so much more apparently.

It’s a pay to win advantage, nothing more, nothing less.

[shangxiang]

@Dupxo7

Ahh ok, and this “bush camouflage” was undestructible taht even flamethrower couldn’t burn it?

Ho and just because it is not realist that bushes cant be destroyed, you suggest more realism by a graphic option who hide them? yeaaaaaaaaaah it is totaly realist …

And … Just read that:

Q. Is it possible to make 3D decorations physical so that they can detach from vehicles when hit?

• Great idea! We’ll look into how complicated this would be to implement, and if it is indeed possible we’ll aim to make them destructible and prone to catching fire as well.

source

[QA] DevTeam response to questions from the YouTube community and content creators - News - War Thunder

@Dupxo7

And it was only accessible to crews that paid real money for this?

You can have all bushes for free with warbonds. Just play and up your battle pass for up your warbond shop (free parts of BP) and buy crates with bushes.
Your remark about a PAYING benefit is erroneous.

And my arguments just are on the volume of bushes can be used on a tank for hide it. Not on the irealistic of permanent status of bushes.
And IRL, tank crews camouflage their tanks much better: IG we are limited with 6 bushes. with the exception of very small tanks, you cant camoufling all your tank and you can hide only front of the tank.

[PointyPuffin]

It is not only available to paying customers.
Bushes can be obtained for free, so calling them a p2w advantage is simply wrong.

[Miragen]

Bushes are not currently available in the warbond shop, as much as people like to shout that as fact despite having no idea about this, how is that not pay to win?

Even when they were in the warbond shop, it requires players to grind to something stupid like level 50+ in the warbond shop, whilst also completing a bunch of special medals, a very demanding task for players just to have a chance at getting a bush, and with almost 40 bushes available, half of them probably being small or whatever there’s a good chance you’ll get a bad bush or even just SL as a big FU.

And with BPs lasting over 3 months, it’s going to take you one a half years at best to get 6 bushes, one and a half years of continuously logging in, playing, completing dailies, completing challenges and special medals, likely 6 completely mismatched and hideous bushes because I love seeing tanks be completely ruined with these things, as well as neon signs, sparklers, fireworks, anime pillows and flashing lights in my supposedly realistic game.

Insane if you think this is even remotely reasonable, a new player is going to require several years to obtain these bushes, forgoing the other rewards in the process as well, during which they’ll be at a disadvantage.

Of course this is in the case that those bushes are actually in the warbond shop, which they are not, something you might want to check before throwing that out there.

If you believe bushes don’t give an advantage, you shouldn’t be opposed to a toggle, if you do believe they give an advantage, they need to be accessible or it’s pay to win, which it currently is.