Yes please rework is needed. Air rb is not fun right now.
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A lot of people talk only about increasing map size but this wouldn’t change a thing, the “EC” map that we have now are still the same thing, everybody still meet a one and only point, the only difference is that it’s just takes longer to get there
What we need is just an adaptation of the SIM EC to RB, there’s not a lot of work to do.
Allies markers should stay, ennemy markers should go away.
In the actual RB mod, when there is a sunset, I don’t know if it’s a bug or not, but enemies markers tends to appear a lot less and it make the game more enjoyable.
And i would love that top tier fighter would have there bombing and CAS equipment to be actually useful
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I agree, just increasing map size isn’t enough. But it had to be increased at some points because planes were getting faster and missiles got longer reaching.
We were going for something that is similar to SIM EC, but we put some twists on it.
I think this is part of the spotting system, but I am not sure.
You and me both
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@Macekeeks and @themadseventeen
I read your proposal and the following discussion. You put a lot of effort in it - this shows passion. I support everybody who is passionate about the game and tries to improve it.
Imho you might consider the following (valid for all proposals):
- Ask yourself what kind of player types play Air RB with which goal.
- Ask yourself what kind of player types are more profitable for gaijin.
- Ask yourself how many passionate (and experienced) pilots are able to take a neutral and sober view on proposals if their own goals whilst playing the game are threatened.
You might agree that Air RB is dominated by:
- Pure grinders (bomb, bomb, bomb…)
- Pure shooter players (kill, kill, kill,kill…)
This leads to the following:
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Both groups are not really interested in more complex game play as they follow just individual goals and use Air RB just as a tool to achieve their goals.
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Depending on their own goals any proposals which change the status quo are either good or bad - and every real and straw man argument will be used to increase their chances to achieve their goals, or simply deny others to pursue their goals.
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Imho these mentioned groups are the main customer groups for gaijin.
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The rather high effort in order to progress can be countered by simple tasks like base bombing (grinders) whilst the other group (shooters) kill the first group. Both are willing to invest a lot of money in top tier premiums in order to achieve their goals.
Your proposal:
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Your proposal looks very interesting for very experienced players looking for a way more demanding game play and who are able (and willing) to play PvP and PvE in the same match.
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These players have usually also the necessary knowledge about how aerial warfare works irl - and which goals are attached to the usage of aircraft on a tactical or strategic level.
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But - imho these players are totally outnumbered by the grinder / shooter pilots. If those are just by their sheer numbers the main target group for gaijin, the implementation of your proposal is not really a desired goal for gaijin, as it is imho just a niche product.
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Therefore an additional game mode has from gaijin’s perspective objectively seen just downsides: The number of players in the classic Air RB mode might decrease (and the potential income from top tier premiums) whilst queue time might increase. In addition the have to invest time and money to create and maintain an additional mode without any financial benefit.
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Imho the only “realistic” way to proceed with your proposal is to find a way to minimize financial risk of gaijin and using the “right” forum in order to gain the necessary community support.
This means in practice:
A) Try to work as volunteer for gaijin in order to get a grasp of the necessary investments of such a mode, and
B) Try to get community support from the wt.ru forum. It is common knowledge that they are able to convince devs to change the game if enough people support this.
Have a good one!
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Thank you for reading and your feedback!
I see your points, but I think there is hope.
I know a lot of people people play ARB just to grind to the “next thing”. But then I ask myself, what are they even grinding for? To get to top tier? Or do they think that they’ll find “fun” once they are done with that rank? As it currently is there is no “reward” for grinding. There is no “fun” at top tier. It’s the same meaningless gameplay loop.
I was there too. I thought it would be fun at top tier, but it isn’t. It’s the same exact thing, except now I am not even grinding for the next thing, since I reached the end.
I think a lot more people would play this mode than all of naval. Gaijin spent a lot of resources on naval, only for it to be the worst performing gamemode, by far. Still, they still invest in it, adding new ships and such. I would say that tweaking a gamemode/missions is much cheaper than getting new vehicles for naval. I don’t have anything against naval, don’t get me wrong. I don’t want naval resources to be redirected or anything.
We haven’t though much about financial side of things, or at all really. We aren’t the first people to suggest something like this. I would say that there is an audience for this here. If this audience is made up only from passionate and experienced pilots, I don’t see why Gaijin would object to separating them from “grinders” in ARB.
Another thing to consider are that some premium strike aircraft are currently useless in ARB. If they were actually useful more people would buy them, I figure.
I am not sure what you mean by this. Volunteer to make the missions? I was thinking of making one or two. I even downloaded the CDK.
I unfortunately don’t speak Russian.
Another reason why I have hope is because they ran that ARH test last dev server. I’d like them to run at least a test for RB rework and collect feedback from people that played it.
I am rambling a bit in this reply, I am just typing what’s on my mind.
If you have any tips on how to get this to the Russian side of the forum, I am taking notes.
Thank you!
Imho investments in Naval have to be seen as a kind of opportunity costs. From my perspective Naval is mainly implemented to strengthen the USP of wt (air, sea, land warfare and combination of different weapon systems) and to increase the entry barrier for potential competitors.
So even if they might produce losses with Naval it makes sense to continue with this in order to protect your core business (tanks & aircraft).
I thought about applying as tech mod / suggestion mod. Most of them are just players like you and me and doing their job as volunteer & for free.
Gaining insights how certain things work within gaijin might be helpful.
You might want to check this thread:
From my pov it boils down to this (my reply):
Thank you very much for your insights how the RU forum and devs are connected.
Seeing this thread as a whole it looks like all you need to initiate changes is access to the RU forum, 70+ people with >30k battles and the ability to read and write in Cyrillic letters.
Finding these 70+ guys looks much more effective than writing thousands of posts/bug reports/suggestions to improve the game.
Hope this helps!
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I thought about it before, but it’s not for me.
I am not devoting that much time towards this, as I said in a previous reply I am very close to quiting the game. Ground RB has been ruined for me a long time ago, and now Air RB is walking a very fine line. If I don’t see it going uphill until next update (not this one that’s about to come out) I am done. I am willing to put out ideas and even make that mission as a proof of concept in my spare time, but no more than that. If they want to run the game into the ground, who am I to stop them.
At the end of the day, it’s just a game. While I am do want it to improve, I don’t want it that much to get a “job” at gaijin to maybe fix it.
If they don’t want to spend a few dozen man hours to improve that gamemode, what is there more to say. Ideas have been out there for years, Macekeeks and I didn’t really invent hot water here.
We’ll see what this update brings. Maybe they already fixed it, who knows.
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Agreed - but imho the game mode looks exactly like the silent (regarding forum representation) majority of rather new/rookie players wants it to be: A more or less plain shooter or a cheap grinding tool for SL/RP to play CAS in Ground RB.
The challenge for long-term players is to find a niche which offers fun & a challenge; imho it is more than obvious that you won’t find this at top tier Air RB.
Have a good one!
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I like a lot of these ideas. Im not sure how i feel about pushing strike fighters and bombers to be the most important portion of the team but i think they should at least be given equal footing to fighters.
This suggestion is ultimately pretty similar to an Air RB Enduring Confrontation (albeit with some changes).
One of the biggest issues with these longer form game modes are people leaving after their team loses. Sort of like those one death leavers in Ground or what happens in Sim EC.
If a mode like this were to be made for Air RB, there should be incentives for players to stay. These incentives could include a 10% SL and RP bonus once tickets drop below a certain point (like 33%) or even some AI reinforcements. Like once tickets drop below a certain amount, a 4 ship of AI planes come to help the team. Not necessarily meant to be OP AI assistance but just a distraction for the enemy at least.
Additionally, i think getting the spotting mechanic well balanced is VERY important. I personally feel that enemy vehicle markers should remain off but enemy missile diamonds can remain on. There would be some exception to this. If enemies get within a certain range of a friendly airfield or objective, they become spotted. This could also help mitigate the airfield camping.
I also feel that any mention of a longer form Air RB should include helicopters. Even if they’re at a disadvantage, it would be nice to have them as an option and they could also provide that low altitude “manpad” risk to aircraft to provide additional risk to staying low. Similar to ground, Gaijin could also give the option for researching helicopters through aviation.
Really good ideas here and i would love to see some 30-45 minute matches come for Air RB. Kind of bored of the 5 to 10 minute match at top tier.
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Thank you for your time!
I hear you. We had thrown some ideas for this but nothing made it to our final proposal. One way to combat this is to make games joinable while in progress, like in SIM EC. This introduces it’s own problems like reward multiplier on win or loss, but I have nothing better honestly.
I agree and I like your idea.
Here’s one more. In a game called titanfall 2, if you lose a match you are given one last chance to escape on an evac ship. If you succeed your loss is treated as a win in XP bonuses and similar. Maybe something similar could be implemented in War Thunder? A last ditch objective to escape maybe.
Adding AWACS type aircraft that cover areas closer to their team’s side of the map would make it feel realistic and not tacked on for gameplay purposes.
I am honestly not sure how exactly they would fit given their speed and all. Another potential problem I see is that Chinese helis have that unflarable all aspect missile. We have suggested manpads, but that has proven to be quite unpopular in this thread.
On the other hand I am all for giving helis a proper gamemode, heli PvE sucks.
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This could be a very cool idea. Maybe something like when a team loses, a nuclear bomber spawns in unspotted at a random location on the map at low altitude and your team has to find and destroy that bomber before it gets to one of your airfields. It would force the whole team to basically conduct a frantic search. There could probably be other ideas too.
I like this idea. It definitely would make it feel more realistic.
Heli PVE feels like it was made by the unpaid intern during their lunch break. Its really boring.
If helis were to be added to an Air RB EC mode, they would need their own bases much closer to AI ground units and in a position where they could cut off any low flying planes.
Yea that chinese missile is ridiculous though.
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This has created the current fuckfest with flareless subsonics fighting A-10s and Su25s with all-aspect missiles.
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Increasing AI/bots/PvE and removing markers I am firmly against, especially paired together. Objectives/bots/etc in PvP games are not themselves the actual end goal, they’re a means to an end, to ensure players run into each other and have a fight. Forcing a fight is the whole idea.
I also take issue with the somewhat derogatory “third-partied” term; that’s just a negative way of phrasing “playing with teammates, as intended”. Any time you can engage an enemy with a numerical advantage, you should; this is, like, one of the most basic elements of Air RB.
There is nowhere in War Thunder’s development where AI or PVE has been a way to ensure players run into each other. This is purely just a way of you projecting what you would like AI and PVE to be. The PVE element in Air RB has always been a way to cater to more passive players. This was outlined by BVVD 2 Youtube Q&A’s ago when asked if EC can completely replace Air RB.
We already have a bunch of AI/PVE elements in ALL air game modes. They’re just completely outdated or poorly implemented. They either need to be updated in RB to be more like an “EC Lite” mode or completely removed altogether to be more like a true TDM.
Third partying is not a “derogatory” phrase. Lol C’mon…
The problem with this “third partying” is that Air RB is now just becoming a cheaper version of Air Arcade, especially at the upper tiers. There’s not nearly enough distinguishing features between the two modes anymore. It’s also just completely unbalanced. Last month i did a test where i played 100 matches at top tier over 2 days and 84 of them ended in complete team wipes which i counted as 6 or more surviving players in the winning team. This setup is not balanced well if the vast majority of games end like this.
Gaijin needs to distinguish its game modes better. Air RB should be midway between Air Arcade and Air Sim. It’s not even close to that currently.
Air RB is Air Arcade Lite.
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Although i fully agree to the first part of your post - this quote is rather bold, as the individual circumstances are decisive.
So if a team mate is obviously controlling a fight and sits in a better aircraft - there is no need to 3rd party his desired victim and robbing his points by swooping in for a cheap 3rd party kill.
In opposition “baiting” an enemy from a 1 vs 1 in a 1 vs 2 (from his perspective) was always the main goal of team work - it makes sometimes just sense if you got chased by a slightly slower, but way better turner to create this. The sole downside is the fact that gaijin killed the proximity score.
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Although i agree with most of your views (in general) - imho the fellow player is correct. Ground targets are marked and visible for both sides - just to enforce player interactions = the PvP player knows where he can find PvE players.
Agreed - or Air AB+.
The increase in complexity from Air AB to Air RB is practically non-existent.
Yes. This is how we use ground targets and AI targets in War Thunder but its not the reason for the ground targets and AI targets. It’s just how the game has evolved since there has been little to no development of these passive interactions for years.
Again i ellude to BVVD himself saying something translated very similar to this a few interviews ago. Ground targets and AI are for passive players.
But yes many of us as more PVP interested players use the PVE elements to guess where enemies will be.
True, if a teammate already “clearly” has the kill lined up I’ll likely keep an eye on them if I can, but I won’t actively try to land hits unless it seems they’re escaping/etc.
This topic seemed more about being on the receiving end to me, and the whole “we were having a gentlemanly 1v1 until the enemy’s unsporting teammate jumped in and killed me” kind of attitude is one I’ll always take issue with. Like, no, the enemy’s teammate did their job. :P
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The sole purpose for ground targets is to lure less skilled / experienced players (mostly designated non-pilots) into a mode which is basically a PvP mode - as gaijin creates the illusion that PvE actions might be a way to participate.
The fact that you get 3 times the RP for a base kill vs a player kill is just the most obvious sign that this is no accident.
I don’t trust any official statements :-)
Haha it wouldn’t surprise me.
Idk if the devs have even thought that hard about this.
War thunder doesn’t really have a direct competitor. Unless we make a big deal about it, they don’t really have much incentive to invest in the game modes.
I think it just boils down to developer burnout.
Look at BVVD on the Russian streams. Read @Stona_WT response to comments on the forums. The dev team really just seems burned out. They’re not having fun anymore.
I think the reason that they barely touch the game modes and that they don’t fix glaring issues unless forced to, is that they’re bored with all this. Its a job. Not a passion.
To a long term War Thunder player and outsiders it really is confusing how outdated the aviation game modes are.
I mean if we were developing aviation game modes from scratch under the “Arcade - Realistic - Simulator” categories, i think a general outline would be pretty easy to come up with.
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Arcade Battle Length: 5 to 12 minutes
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Realistic Battle Length: 20 to 40 minutes
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Simulator Battle Length: 1 hour +
What do we have now? Arcade lasts 10-15 mins. Realistic lasts 7 to 15 mins and simulator lasts 2.5 hours…
It’d be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.
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