Air battles RP bias?

[AlvisWisla]

Again, what the service record says is not accurate. It does not prove anything in any direction.
Go check my Mirage 3C stats, go check that RP of the entirely spaded aircraft.
Now do the same for the entirely spaded Chinese ISU-122.
In both cases I have NEVER played another match in them after they were spaded, so their service-record RP is exactly stopped the moment both were spaded.

You will quickly find neither align with their spaded RP requirements.
Service record RP is not a usable metric.

[Realtek0]

Let me explain my logic. The stat card screenshots here really matter because of one key factor, both my friend (grinding China air and ground) and I (Sweden ground and Japan air) are RUSHING as fast as we can. We’re not sticking around and playing with what we like. We’re getting it over with those vehicles as fast as we can so we can advance onto the next vehicle and the next tier.

I can’t use my Swedish air tree as example as I played many vehicles there just for fun and also because I have a premium there. Same for my friend, I can’t use HIS Sweden ground stats because he played a lot of matches there for fun.

So when it’s clear my friend needed way more matches in ground than he needed in air to get past a rank, and when it’s clear I also needed way more matches in ground than I needed in air, it is very much clear rewards are NOT the same and that these specific stat cards numbers matter because we’re grinding as fast as we can lol.

[AlvisWisla]

Here’s a reality: It took me 1.5 months for Japan ground, and 1.5 months for Japan air as my first ever grind in 2019.
Both were about the same length cause I was about as good in both.
I got better in air RB faster than I did in ground.
Today I’m more skilled in air than ground and can earn faster in air than ground because of that skill gap.

There are players that earn faster in ground than air because of skill gap.

[Realtek0]

How does that metric work? If we’re using anything like that it took me 1 year to finish rank VI sweden and 2 weeks to get ranks VII and VIII. Number of battles are much more consistent when tanks/planes are being played as little as possible to unlock the next vehicle or rank.

Let’s use my friend’s stats once again

Of course skill matters but are these stats not good? Both air and ground. Even my own stats with Swedish ground and Japanese air. 75 total matches in rank 5 air but 94 minimum rank 5 ground. And why do I say minimum?

The vehicle I played the most in this rank was the Ikv 91 with 94 matches. However, there are matches I didn’t touch it at all, specially when I was spading the other vehicles. So there are lots of additional matches counted within the total amount but that we’ll never actually get to know, but certainly way more than 94 in this example.

But not to drag this on, here’s my nuke match, a normal air RB match and a good RB match

If you can still look at this and tell me rewards are about the same, you’re actually insane. I won’t post here any longer as atp you’re refusing to accept the reality and multiple screenshots showing you that going through air grind is much faster than ground grind. Have a good day.

[AlvisWisla]

@Realtek0

@Realtek0

How does that metric work?

Worse than comparing like-match results screens, barely better than using service records.

A match slightly worse than your Rocky Pillars mission. 16,450 RP. Vs your 11,715.
I don’t know what aircraft you were using though. However, you can adjust for multipliers with the following formula: Your aircraft multiplier / 696 = answer. Answer x 16,450 = The relative RP for the vehicle’s rewards you used.

Spoiler

Also looking down on and belittling others does not make for constructive discussion.

Your 7 frag match is equal to a 21ish frag ground match and my 26 frag ground match doesn’t have a post-battle screenshot.

[RunaDacino]

And how’s it compare if you respawn early?

The thing I had had hoped to highlight was to showcase the difference of how activity is calculated across lives and how it impacts rewards.

[Sternlos]

I don’t get the more spawns argument, you get significantly less RP for a grb match you don’t die in with similar score/time for arb.

[FlyingWarlord]

Why even compare? Just demand ground RP gain be raised. Why do people want to drag others down to their level of suffering instead of improving their situation.

[DeLacy909]

Make GRB single spawn then and you can have your equal rewards

[RunaDacino]

Single spawn, again, is not justification.

Even if you survive 25 minutes in GRB with a single spawn, you by definition get less rewards.

Let us assume a victory, 100% RP bonus, no premium, nothing.

Let us assume we were high on the leaderboard, so ~90% activity.

ARB:

1.22 (RP/second) x 0.9 x 25 (minutes) x 60 (second/minute) x 2.0 x 1.0 = 3294 RP

GRB:

0.71 (RP/second) x 0.9 x 25 (minutes) x 60 (second/minute) x 2.0 x 1.0 = 1917 RP

Single spawn, top of the leaderboard, solely time alive, victory.

massive difference.

What is activity?

f(score, time alive) = activity%

Formula is known well for ASB (fixed 15 minute time alive) for:

200 points = 54% reward
400 points = 75% reward
600 points = 86% reward
800 points = 90% reward
1050+ points = 92% reward

It is approximated for ARB with the above conceptual diagram.

For GRB we don’t have a conceptual diagram due to how obfuscated activity calculations are when it comes to multiple respawns. All that is observed trend-wise is that you receive less activity% if you respawn, but its logistic-like shape does mean respawns can catch up with activity% relatively reasoanbly.

[SiberianSnakeSIB]

@RunaDacino

ARB:

1.22 (RP/second)

@RunaDacino

GRB:

0.71 (RP/second)

I dont think I’m wrong saying “air bias” at this point. When RB tankers get ~50 RP for kill, RB pilots get ~110 RP, and they also get more RP for just existing in a battle… I dont see any other word for such conditions

[_Poul]

I’m pretty sure most people see multi-spawn modes as “more targets” for you. They clearly don’t take into account the fact that each additional target could also kill you.

From my perspective, it’s actually much easier to stay alive in Air Realistic than in any other game mode, because of single-spawn, so less enemies that can kill you. When you kill someone, you know he won’t respawn and attack you a minute later. It’s so much easier to control your enemies and your positioning in Air Realistic than any other game mode.

At least in my opinion, Air Realistic is the easiest game mode to play, and at the same time it gives the most RP.

I also think that some people don’t understand that even in multi-spawn game modes, RP is calculated separately for each vehicle. So it’s not like you can have a bad battle with vehicle A, and then spawn vehicle B to increase your RP for vehicle A. The only exception from this are backups (they extend the Time Alive in the same vehicle, so they affect RP of this vehicle).

There are also different problems with multi-spawn game modes. For example, you need much more crew XP, as you have to exp a few crew slots. In Air Realistic you will do great even with just one crew slot maxed.

When you die, the only real advatage of multi-spawn game mode is that you don’t have to waste additional time to wait in the queue and then wait for the next battle to load and start. I personally don’t see this as such a big problem, especially the waiting times on EU/CIS servers in game modes I play are very short.

I made a test a few years ago, trying to figure out the difference between spading the same vehicle in Air Arcade and Air Realistic, and my results were:

For example, we have two Yak-9P in the game, which are identical, just in the different tech trees (one is Russian, one is Hungarian/Italian).

• to spade Russian Yak-9P in Air Arcade I needed 48 battles with 32 deaths, 104 air kills and 20 ground kills.
• to spade Hungarian Yak-9P in Air Realistic I needed 9 battles with 4 deaths, 17 air kills and 8 ground kills.

Such difference between spading the same vehicle in two game modes is just ridiculous in my opinion. Yes, of course I do understand that there are more targets in Air Arcade. But like I said before, every enemy player can kill you. You are not killing AI targets, players are much less predictable, one small mistake and you are dead. For me, it’s much easier to make a mistake and die in Air Arcade than Air Realistic.

I personally think that the RP is Air Realistic is completely fine. I don’t know why some players still complain about it. In fact, this is the only game mode where I think RP should remain as it is now. All other game modes have far too low RP, even with my premium account. That’s probably the reason why the devs always show Air Realistic as an example, when they talk about RP.

The Mission RP reward formula is actually known, it was revealed by Gaijin a few years ago:

The mission RP reward = time alive in the vehicle (in seconds) * win/lose multiplier (1.2 for a win, 0.8 for a lose) * game mode multiplier (hidden value used by the devs to keep rewards on the desired level) * vehicle RP multiplier (can be checked on the vehicle stats card) * activity % in the vehicle (/100)

When this formula was revealed, in August 2021, the game mode multiplier for Air Realistic was 2.04, but it’s almost surely different now (the devs use this multiplier to keep RP gains at a desired level, so it can change at any time). From what I remember, the game mode multiplier in Air Arcade was below 1.0.

This is just Mission RP reward formula. Additionally, Air Realistic has x2.5 reward multiplier for every action, so action RP is also much higher there than in any other game mode.

Air Realistic is also the only game mode (from all Arcade and Realistic game modes), where activity is counted differently. There are much easier rules that allow you to achieve high activity even with relatively poor results.

If you play defensively, Air Realistic is also the easiest game mode in which you can stay alive for a very long time. So you can get a lot of RP for just staying alive (Time Alive in the vehicle).

I personally think that Air Realistic is boring most of the time, but the RP it provides is excellent. And I’m not even a good Air Realistic player. I can’t even imagine how quickly good players can grind there.

[RunaDacino]

@_Poul_

When this formula was revealed, in August 2021, the game mode multiplier for Air Realistic was 2.04, but it’s almost surely different now (the devs use this multiplier to keep RP gains at a desired level, so it can change at any time). From what I remember, the game mode multiplier in Air Arcade was below 1.0.

The report cited for 2024 january puts it at 1.22, while for GRB it’s at 0.71. Win/loss was also changed to 2/1.34 from the original reveal.

Regarding multi-spawn,

Air Sim is the “funniest.”

In Air sim, regardless of performance, you cannot earn more than a fixed amount of reward capped at ~1050 score earned.

This means that with 136% RP reward modifier, 2 kills are worth 2000 (+500 if you land) per 15 minute reward cycles. 4 kills are also worth 2000 (+500) per 15 minute reward cycle. 8 kills? Same deal.

However, 1 kill in the first 15 minute reward cycle (2000 is 0.92 reward, 1 kill is 0.75 so 2000/0.92x0.75= 1630) and another kill in the second reward cycle gives you 3260 RP for 2 kills.

You get more RP for doing 2 kills 15 minutes apart than 8 kills in say, five minutes of intense dogfighting.

And god forbid you take more fuel and stay active in the air for multiple 15 minute cycles - you lose the landing portion of your reward for the earlier cycles.

See:

(the landing bonus at 1:59:17 should be approximately double its value as it corresponds to the 1:41:33 reward cycle and the 1:56:33 reward cycles and 810 vs 910 score is a difference of 0.9 and 0.92 at most)

What does this mean?

You need, assuming perfect play (never dying, always getting 2 kills/15 minutes, but not landing.

For crew skills (1 XP per 100 RP, only ranking G tolerance and stamina)
Time it takes to go from 2+2 to 5+5 with bf109 is (2571*2-(22+64+110+160)*2)*100 = 443000
Bf109F4 no RTB (/2000 * 15 / 60): 55 hours
Bf109F4 with RTB: 44 hours

[warrior412]

@SiberianSnakeSIB

air battles…give players much better RP rewards

That deflates the whole ‘RB AFs players come to RB GFs for an advantage on grinding aircraft!’ chatter now doesn’t it?

Independent of your checking, the last comparison I did (some time ago) found aircraft in RB GFs face delay (non-aircraft play time), higher costs (aircraft costs plus the ground units’ costs), and lower RP yields of the mode…none of which give aircraft in RB GFs an advantage over aircraft in RB AFs for grinding progress.

[RunaDacino]

@warrior412

That deflates the whole ‘RB AFs players come to RB GFs for an advantage on grinding aircraft!’ chatter now doesn’t it?

Fighter-bombers and strike aircraft are different to air superiority and interceptor aircraft.

Reasons ARB players go to GRB:

1. Less enemies to shoot them down in their fighter-bomber or strike craft. Something like the Il-2 or Stuka is useless in ARB, but works decently in GRB and ASB and GSB. ASB is not chosen because people overestimate its difficulty and barrier of entry and because ASB rewards suck. GSB is not chosen because of ASB reasons + impossibility of finding a lobby due to lineup system forcing you to only play on specific days.
2. Defenceless targets that offer better rewards than A.I pillboxes and howitzers
3. No need to race their peers to minibases.

On point 1, Yak-9K is a quite balanced aircraft in ASB and ARB that has very nice roll rate and low-speed characteristics but is a pain to control at high speeds and has very limited ammo and a hard to aim gun.

Used in GRB or GSB, it’s a monster that utterly dominates with impunity, retaining its balanced air to air capabilities while also being given defenceless targets it can shoot and kill with 1-3 hits depending on aim and luck. Hellcat and F4U-4 are similar but with a ton of bombs and rockets instead.

[SiberianSnakeSIB]

exactly, less spawns in ARB = less enemies to kill you in the end, while GRB is infested with rats, heavies or attackers/bombers. In air, once whole team is done, everyone can just farm RP by flying around and destroying AI targets (usually there is just 1 guy chilling in the high clouds who nobody can reach and kill), battle wont end soon because team decided to cap the point and speedrun the battle. Thus tankers get less rewards.

If ground and naval battles were purely time-ending or until everyone is dead, obviously the rewards would be higher, but still not as much as air’s, as it got bigger RP multiplier apparently

[warrior412]

@RunaDacino

Reasons ARB players go to GRB:

To your credit, you raise valid points…however, I still have serious doubts there is any serious influx of RB AFs folks to RB GFs for this purpose. A few? Sure. Some? Maybe. A lot? Eh…depends on how we want to define that, but I doubt it’s some horde.

Given the hurdles involved, I don’t think it’s actually as popular as some might think it is. I just don’t see it catching on like that (especially with the numbers as they are).

@RunaDacino

On point 1, Yak-9K is a quite balanced aircraft in ASB and ARB that has very nice roll rate and low-speed characteristics but is a pain to control at high speeds and has very limited ammo and a hard to aim gun.

The Yak-9K as-is is…unrealistic, to put it charitably. In reality, it was treated akin to a heavy fighter and had serious reliability issues for what it’s worth (not WT’s forte). It should be a cow and flies entirely too gracefully as-is for what it ought to be if we’re to take the historical accounts as accurate.

I understand your bigger point–but the Yak-9K seems to be a remarkably poor example to look to. It is only really notable right now because it is bogus. (I have personally abstained from using it in RB GFs because I cannot condone it as-is.)

[Herojure24]

My main issue is that RP gains do not correlate to score in battle in any way. You can finish a ground battle with 4000 score and still get less RP than an air battle with 2000 score.

And afaik score should be indicative of how well you did in the battle.

[SiberianSnakeSIB]

Too bad the battle didn’t last for 5-10 more minutes. Only 4.5K. (4 frags, 9 minutes of flying, no landings)

Here is comparison with yesterday’s KV battle. 2 kills only, and staying AFK for 15min gave me 1.8K. I wouldn’t risk my ass to get nine kills when whole enemy team is T14s and tank destroyers who pierce me like a needle.

Seriously, getting 9 ground kills and 7 naval kills (approximation for 15K of damage) is much more risky than 4 air kills (just intercept 2 bombers and kill 2 more unsuspecting fighters). Especially knowing your RP multiplier is 0.7 and 0.6, compared to air’s 1.2

Sure, you get 40 RP for every kill, 9 kills = 360 RP + you get double bonus to earned RP (if I sweated to get 9 on KV, I’d get (1800+360)x2 = 4320RP. With MUCH MORE sweating and 6 minutes of more playtime I’d still get a bit less than in this air battle.

[_Poul]

@Herojure24

My main issue is that RP gains do not correlate to score in battle in any way.

Only action rewards are independent. Mission rewards depends from your score, but it’s a bit complicated to understand. I tried to explain this some time ago, if you have some time and want to learn how it works, you can check my posts here:

Air RB reduced EXP gain

You already noticed that these values depend from a few factors. It’s not only premium vehicle and premium account, but it’s also the vehicle itself. Every action reward is multiplied by your vehicle RP/SL multiplier, so it will be different with pretty much every vehicle. You are also misunderstanding action rewards and mission rewards. Action rewards do not depend on the time spent in the vehicle. Every action you see on the screen won’t be changed, that’s the final RP/SL for this specific a…

Air RB reduced EXP gain

Yes, the whole thing is a bit complicated, so I didn’t want to go into details too much. You can see my post was already pretty long, I bet like 99% of users won’t even read it. But you are correct and the score:time alive formula to calculate the activity % is a function. For specific time you need specific score. This formula is exactly what changed in 2021, and this made our life much more complicated. Even with amazing results, I can’t get 100% activity nowadays in Air Arcade, the score:ti…