Morvan, love ya brother, but…
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ah yes the brick that is the f-15e is somehow equal to the hyper manuverable eurofighter that pulls 14 gs at a whim
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Typhoon has already been signficantly nerfed for balancing purposes. Giving the US an overwhelming advantage is simply not justified. Its also insane to argue that the only reason the C5 is so badly nerfed is because it was given to the EFTs and not that it was nerfed because it was given to the F-15E.
Unfortunately US Mains seem to think that they should be the meta nation and if anyone else is even equal to them in performance it means they are entitled to major buffs. The amount of them that were arguing that the F-15E wasnt even all that strong when it was introduced and that aircraft like the EFT should have been added alongside the F-22 was insane.
They have equal climb rates. Meaning the Typhoon has no energy advantage vs F-15E in BVR.
The F-15E has a superior radar
The F-15E has more ARH missiles
The F-15E has better (and tenatively more) countermeasures
In a meta where missile performance matters more than airframe performance, the ability to “turn well” doesnt really mean much and if that is the only thing that matters then the Tornado F3 Late should be 12.0 because it cant beat a Gripen A in a dogfight and therefore that must be really unfair.
This idea that the EFT must be artificially nerfed and restrcited from fair and reasonable buffs because its not US is jsut insane. What next? Add Aim-9X to the F-15E, MICA IR to the Rafale and R-74 to the Su-30 or whatever but leave the Tyhpoon with Aim-9M because it can win gunfights?
They are pretty much on the same page with the Typhoon being arguably better.
Radar is pretty much the same (EFT one is being gimped by nerfs)
Understandable, however it’s just 2 more and they are pretty much useless too cause they get notched in an instant (this goes for all AMRAAM platforms)
Meh. Eurofighter has MAWS and a bit more countermeasures. The F-15’s are larger, yeah but MAWS is still something to want.
The idea that the AMRAAM got nerfed because of the Eurofighter is crazy. It was just because of gaijin’s bias (?) or smth. Would have been cool to see an actual good missile for WVR on the F-15
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Lol no, very much not so after the IRST changes.
What “better” countermeasures, the eurofighter straight up uses “Large caliber countermeasures” they are flat out better in every way to the F-15E’s standard size CMs.
EF
F-15E
See above, its the inverse.
Large caliber countermeasures are superior to standard caliber and very much so BOL flares in every single metric. You can straight up single pop large CMs and defeat most missiles, meanwhile BOLs you need to dump 30+ or for standard 10+ to get even remotely the same performance.
Radar and IRST are 2 entirely different things. The IRST on the Typhoon barely works and has about a dozen outstanding bug reports for it
As for Radar. The TWS on the Typhoon barely works, and now the HMD/ACM modes are playing up. We almost dont actually have a working radar
The EFT has 64 Large calibre CMs and 320 BOL. The F-15E has 240 regular CMs. I run all the LCMs as Flares and all the BOL has chaff. but for every one chaff you drop in the F-15E I have to drop 4-8 BOL. BOL Chaff also doesnt work at short ranges. Meaning my 320 BOL probably translates to 40-80 regular chaff.
So the F-15E has more CMs and superior CMs. I would gladly trade the 64 LCM + 320 BOL for 240 CMs any day of the week as pretty much all my deaths are too ARH missiles and regular CMs are fine for defeating most IR missiles
Yes I am aware, however unlike on the F-15E, if you loose a track the IRST will still track it after the recent changes, such should be also occurring on the Sniper ATP but is not and is a massive boon as you can still guide radar missiles to targets with just the IRST in such situations.
As is the case for the F-15E and many other aircraft, get back to me when you try to lock a target in TWS only for your radar to seize up and become useless for the rest of the match, happens all the time now with the F-15E and the F-14s.
Cool you are misusing your 64 large caliber CMs, they are vastly superior in every situation for both chaff and flares, I would also remind you that normal chaff does not work at close ranges either, nor does large caliber chaff.
The F-15E has more standard CMs, but no it does not have superior CMs, large caliber CMs are statistically superior in every single situation they are in to a nearly incomparable degree, the fact that you write them off so easily shows you do not understand their value.
I would gladly dump my 240 standard CMs for 64 large caliber CMs any day, this is why I love my F-111F’s main cassettes, those first fired large caliber CMs functionally make me immune to all radar missiles and even SLMs while on an attack run, standard CMs could never even remotely hope to defeat SLMs without maneuvers, but the F-111F can without issue.
As are BOL flares, flip your CM load you will find it far better in functionally every situation as long as you actually ration your chaff.
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Only if you hard lock the target and the target doesnt flare. At which point it looses lock.
Come back to me when your radar creates random targets that dont exists or makes the targets appearing 15km from where they actaully are so you waste missiles on targets that dont actually exists. Or when you point your radar directly at a target and no matter what you do, no matter what mode you are in, the target never appears on the radar.
BOL is literally 1/4 the size of a regular chaff at the moment. This difference is massive. If you cant chaff a missile at close range with regular CMs its a skill issue.
As for "misusing the LCMs " lol, no. The reason I have this set up is because it means I know exactly what type of CM Im dropping whether its flare or chaff. BOL flares in additions to their artificially nerfed luminosity also have a actualy historically accurate reduced burn time. So when pre-flaring I have to drop a BOL flare 2-3 times more frequently to provide effective pre-flare coverage. By running only flares in the LCMs with their full length burn time. I can be far more sparring when pre-flaring. If I run a mix of BOL flares and chaff, I must always assume that im dropping a BOL and so will spam falres and/or chaff to defend against a threat, essentially eliminating the fact I actually have large calibre flares as I must operate as if everything is the very weak BOL.
and regular CMs are statistcally superior in every single situation to BOL. For BOL to match the performance of a regular CM I would need to drop 4-8 BOL, if not far far more just to be on the safe side. With regular CMs you can be far more consistant. The fact you write off regular CMs compared to BOL means you do not understand their value.
and again. I very rarely even drop a flare most matches and spend most of my time in BVR just like the F-15E. Therefore its BOL chaff vs regular chaff. Assuming the F-15E is running 50/50 split. I would need something like 960 BOL chaff to even come close to the defensive capability of the 120 chaff the F-15E has. I dont, I only have 320 BOL. 1/3 the amount of CMs relatively speaking at the moment.
No. BOL chaff are weak, BOL flares are weaker still. as they have reduced burn time. The best defence against an IRCCM is pre-flaring. You CANNOT effectively pre-flare with BOL, not without spamming dozens and dozens of the damn things. Also, their effectiveness at actually defeating an IRCCM missile that has been fired is almost non-existant. I might as well just run 100% chaff and not any flares.
I would advice you actually play something with BOL other than the F-14B (and even there you have barely got a positive K/D) before lecturing me on the performance of BOL or how to use it. 7/8 Rank VIII aircraft I have at this moment in time are 100% dependent on BOL (And that 8th is currently missing them)
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Good thing you have the system in the first place to loose lock with.
Hi I’m back, such is occurring with TWS on my F-15E, F-16C, F/A-18C, AV-8B+, F-14A/B and functionally everything with TWS.
Yes I’ve had people become invisible to my ACM mode and close range search, once again, gaijin has broken radar quite a bit.
I will direct you here real fast It’s time for Gaijin to finally reverse the ahistorical nerf to BOL countermeasures [Poll] - Dev Server “Leviathans” / General Discussion - Dev Server - War Thunder — official forum
Yes, BOL chaff is 75% worse than standard CMs right now, thats why you don’t use it for chaff, currently however, 2 BOL flares roughly equate to a single standard CM in terms of luminosity.
As already well established, large caliber CMs just obliterate both full stop, its not even remotely comparable.
Yet your large caliber CMs are not chaff only.
I am aware, yet, they are still better used as flares when presented with large caliber CMs as your second option, that is unless you are facing nearly exclusively IR missiles, relegating your large caliber CMs to be flares and BOLs as chaff is very much so not optimal.
Per the chart above 2x.
Yet you also handicap yourself by not taking advantage of their vastly superior chaff performance.
You are aware that you can drop chaff and flares independently right?
No if you actually separate your countermeasures as I have advised you to do, you can easily utilize your superior countermeasure types when faced with the proper threat.
2 per the chart above
Very nice strawman, I never stated that standard CMs are in any way superior to BOL CMs, I have only stated that large caliber countermeasures are superior to standard and BOL CMs in every situation.
So you admit that you are misusing your large caliber countermeasure capacity by filling them with flare charges even you deem are largely unused.
AGAIN STOP USING YOUR BOLS FOR CHAFF! You have the solution to your pains right Infront of you, FILL YOUR LARGE CALIBER CMS WITH CHAFF EXCLUSIVLY PLEASE!
The BOL chaff also dissipates faster as far as I am aware, so no, BOL flares are still superior to chaff as highlighted in the above link.
If I can do so in the F-14B which has the equivalent of a sun attached to it’s rear so can you.
A very similar statement can be made about standard CMs when compared to large caliber CMs which you seem to rely on heavily.
And I would advise you to fly a plane without large caliber flares at top tier as you seem to use them as a crutch.
Oh hey look, we’ve gotten to the point where you don’t have an argument and choose to stat shame me.
So typical… You know, I’ve though about privating my stats, but people like you keep giving me a good reason to keep it public since ya’ll just keep making the same mistake over and over again.
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Yes… I know…
But you need to drop 2-4 BOL flares 2-3x more often to provide effective pre-flare defence and defeating IRCCM is significantly easier with pre-flaring. Also, due to how defending against IR missiles is down to “thrust to flare ratios”. High thrust aircraft like the typhoon and weak flares like BOL mean the likelihood of them even working is slim to none.
That chart is not entirely accurate. I’m not sure the exact luminosity difference but that chart is just for demonstrational purposes and isn’t accurate.
You are aware that if you set BOL to a mix of flares and chaff there is no way of knowing what CM is being dropped. By running one type for each size I always know what is being dropped.
Holy moly your a bit thick. I have already explained multiple times why LCMs as flares is better. But given you think the F15E is somehow a weak aircraft at top tier I’m not really that surprised. You could give a US main an F22 with Aim-9X and Aim-260s and they’d still claim they needed a buff
No …
I’m not going to listen to a US main that thinks the F15E is somehow a doa aircraft.
Especially one who has barely played top tier. And definetly someone who has NEVER played a typhoon.
But I can suggest you learn how to play the F15E better if you really think it’s as bad as you claim. Definetly a MAJOR skill issue
You mean like the Sea Harrier FA2 which makes the F14 look ice cold in comparison? Sure I can do that… Guess what BOL sucks for flares.
Or the F3 Late which is basically BOL only with how few internal CMs its got.
Haha typical US main
Need to tighten up those servos then.
Given your statements you don’t seem to.
2 BOL flares twice as often due to the halved burn time.
Indeed
Not entirely, exhaust temp, or gaijin’s calculation of such also comes into play, its why the F-14A can be all aspected by even things like the AIM-9J from 5km+ head on if it’s in full AB even though its max AB thrust is only 8020 kgf.
Indeed, although interesting that you seem to posture that the EF is somehow uniquely effected by it’s thrust when it’s spaded combined thrust output is on the low end of top tier. I sure don’t hear SU-30 pilots complaining as hard as you are about trying to avoid IR AAMs even though their total heat signature is vastly larger.
Alrighty then, since we are going to play hardball I’ll break out the wall of data just for you.
Large Caliber CM - Standard Caliber CM - BOL
Duration - 4.5 [] 4.4 [] 1.8
Emission profile - 0.4, 4.0, 4.4 [] 0.4,4.0,4.4 [] 0.75,1.65,1.8
Emission 2 - 4.5 [] 1.0 [] 0.6
Chaff properties ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cloud - 0.05,0.1,17.0,20.0 [] 0.05,0.1,12.0,15.0 [] 0.05,0.1,12.0,15.0
Mult - 1.1 [] 0.2 [] 0.05
So, as you can see above, a single large CM is 22 times more potent than a BOL chaff burst by it’s mult alone, a standard chaff CM is only 4 times more effective than a BOL chaff charge per it’s mult alone.
Large CM chaff >>>>>>>> Everything else.
A large CM is roughly 8 times more effective than a BOL flare, and a standard CM is roughly twice as effective as a BOL CM. Thus, the specified chart is accurate for flares.
Due to the lower efficacy difference, it is plainly obvious that large countermeasure charges should be used for chaff exclusively, with BOL and standard CM slots being used for flares.
Yes, such is a mistake.
Yes, such is the right way to go about it.
Yes, and I agree that large countermeasure flares are better than standard flares and BOLs, however I have stated that large CM charges are better used for chaff if you have BOL pods, not doing so is handicapping yourself.
I don’t recall stating that the F-15E is a weak top tier aircraft anywhere in this thread, as far as I am aware, beyond this conversation we are having now I’ve not talked about the F-15E at all.
Ah never mind, you were making another strawman argument … sigh.
Oh boy two for two on the strawman, please put more words in my mouth.
Been stuck with a completed tree for a while now but ok.
Yes, but you already know that correct? You have been busy looking at my stats so you should already know what I play, it does not dispute the fact that you are using the countermeasures you have been given incorrectly.
There we go again, where have I claimed in this thread that the F-15E is a bad aircraft? The only components of the aircraft that I have spoken to are, the SNIPER ATP missing a mode of function, and gaijin breaking all radars in game this patch, including the F-15E. I have not once spoken to the total efficacy of the aircraft in this thread.
Oh man thats rich.
You are aware that the spaded F-14A and B both have almost double the thrust due to having, well, two engines. Not to mention the exhaust temp of the pegasus harriers at wep is right around 1500F, meanwhile the F-14B’s non AB operating temp is 1698F, or 1713F in AB, far in excess of what any harrier is capable of outputting in game. Also obligatory “THE F-14A IS AS HOT AS THE SUN” moment, the 100% operating temp of the F-14A is 2107F and the AB temp is 2147F, way WAY in excess of any normal aircraft in game.
So no, both F-14s, ESPECIALLY the F-14A, are vastly hotter than any of the harriers.
32 Large CMs + BOLs are fine if you use them right, not to mention the tornados are also not that hot to begin with, with an operating temp of 1626F and an AB temp of 1652F, slightly below that of the operating temp F-14B, but, of course, due to their far FAR lower thrust per engine, the tornadoes are inherently quite cooler.
Yeah nah, I don’t even see a reason to humor that.
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No it doesnt. Exhaust temp has absolutely 0 barring on the IR signature of aircraft. None. 0. This is why the HARRIER is hotter than the F-14.
Exhaust temp is not modeled and engines temps have no barring. It is only thrust output of the engine and thrust to falre ratios. Harrier is hotter than an F-14.
Per Necro, EGT plays a part in the current ability for IR systems to track aircraft.
Exhaust temp is currently modeled as EGT.
Even if we removed EGT from the mix, you are aware that the F-14 series has two engines … Right? Who’s total thrust far exceeds that of the harrier?
Oh who am I kidding, you ignored all the parts of the argument you knew you already lost, of course you did not.
No, its been confirmed that only thrust to flare ratios matter for flaring missiles. Exhaust is not modeled
Usual US main, always thinks they are right.
I regret to inform you that my source is more current than yours.
And even if we took your source as fact, the harrier still has less total thrust than the F-14A and B, 16040 kgf and 20460 kgf vs 10020 kgf, so your statement in both situations is bunk. Heck, even if we compare single engines the F-14B is still hotter at 10230 kgf per engine.
I can seriously keep this going all day with your fallacies, but this is also an AIM-120C-5 thread and at this rate you are going to bait a ban for both of us, or, well mainly you since you chose to whinge about the EF the moment someone else brought up the F-15E.
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The cope…
Not flanker levels tho
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This some crazy shit you have here. Whole paragraphs to describe the idea of how large cm are far better than any other cm and that radars are bugged for all aircraft.
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Tbh yeah radars on every top tier jet are horrendous the only jets that dont seem to have problems are the aircraft with ESA radars which so far is still limited to a select few
Shouldnt even really be a problem but gaijin cant model radars correctly i suppose