AIM-120C-5 underperforming report disscusion

[Lolman345]

@Morvran_

Only if you hard lock the target and the target doesnt flare. At which point it looses lock.

Good thing you have the system in the first place to loose lock with.

@Morvran_

Come back to me when your radar creates random targets that dont exists or makes the targets appearing 15km from where they actaully are so you waste missiles on targets that dont actually exists.

Hi I’m back, such is occurring with TWS on my F-15E, F-16C, F/A-18C, AV-8B+, F-14A/B and functionally everything with TWS.

@Morvran_

Or when you point your radar directly at a target and no matter what you do, no matter what mode you are in, the target never appears on the radar.

Yes I’ve had people become invisible to my ACM mode and close range search, once again, gaijin has broken radar quite a bit.

@Morvran_

BOL is literally 1/4 the size of a regular chaff at the moment. This difference is massive. If you cant chaff a missile at close range with regular CMs its a skill issue.

I will direct you here real fast It’s time for Gaijin to finally reverse the ahistorical nerf to BOL countermeasures [Poll] - Dev Server “Leviathans” / General Discussion - Dev Server - War Thunder — official forum

Yes, BOL chaff is 75% worse than standard CMs right now, thats why you don’t use it for chaff, currently however, 2 BOL flares roughly equate to a single standard CM in terms of luminosity.

As already well established, large caliber CMs just obliterate both full stop, its not even remotely comparable.

@Morvran_

As for "misusing the LCMs " lol, no. The reason I have this set up is because it means I know exactly what type of CM Im dropping whether its flare or chaff.

Yet your large caliber CMs are not chaff only.

@Morvran_

BOL flares in additions to their artificially nerfed luminosity also have a actualy historically accurate reduced burn time.

I am aware, yet, they are still better used as flares when presented with large caliber CMs as your second option, that is unless you are facing nearly exclusively IR missiles, relegating your large caliber CMs to be flares and BOLs as chaff is very much so not optimal.

@Morvran_

So when pre-flaring I have to drop a BOL flare 2-3 times more frequently to provide effective pre-flare coverage.

Per the chart above 2x.

@Morvran_

By running only flares in the LCMs with their full length burn time. I can be far more sparring when pre-flaring.

Yet you also handicap yourself by not taking advantage of their vastly superior chaff performance.

@Morvran_

If I run a mix of BOL flares and chaff, I must always assume that im dropping a BOL and so will spam falres and/or chaff to defend against a threat,

You are aware that you can drop chaff and flares independently right?

@Morvran_

essentially eliminating the fact I actually have large calibre flares as I must operate as if everything is the very weak BOL.

No if you actually separate your countermeasures as I have advised you to do, you can easily utilize your superior countermeasure types when faced with the proper threat.

@Morvran_

and regular CMs are statistcally superior in every single situation to BOL. For BOL to match the performance of a regular CM I would need to drop 4-8 BOL, if not far far more just to be on the safe side.

2 per the chart above

@Morvran_

The fact you write off regular CMs compared to BOL means you do not understand their value.

Very nice strawman, I never stated that standard CMs are in any way superior to BOL CMs, I have only stated that large caliber countermeasures are superior to standard and BOL CMs in every situation.

@Morvran_

and again. I very rarely even drop a flare most matches and spend most of my time in BVR just like the F-15E.

So you admit that you are misusing your large caliber countermeasure capacity by filling them with flare charges even you deem are largely unused.

@Morvran_

Assuming the F-15E is running 50/50 split. I would need something like 960 BOL chaff to even come close to the defensive capability of the 120 chaff the F-15E has.

AGAIN STOP USING YOUR BOLS FOR CHAFF! You have the solution to your pains right Infront of you, FILL YOUR LARGE CALIBER CMS WITH CHAFF EXCLUSIVLY PLEASE!

@Morvran_

No. BOL chaff are weak, BOL flares are weaker still. as they have reduced burn time.

The BOL chaff also dissipates faster as far as I am aware, so no, BOL flares are still superior to chaff as highlighted in the above link.

@Morvran_

You CANNOT effectively pre-flare with BOL, not without spamming dozens and dozens of the damn things.

If I can do so in the F-14B which has the equivalent of a sun attached to it’s rear so can you.

@Morvran_

Also, their effectiveness at actually defeating an IRCCM missile that has been fired is almost non-existant.

A very similar statement can be made about standard CMs when compared to large caliber CMs which you seem to rely on heavily.

@Morvran_

I would advice you actually play something with BOL other than the F-14B

And I would advise you to fly a plane without large caliber flares at top tier as you seem to use them as a crutch.

@Morvran_

(and even there you have barely got a positive K/D) before lecturing me on the performance of BOL or how to use it.

Oh hey look, we’ve gotten to the point where you don’t have an argument and choose to stat shame me.

So typical… You know, I’ve though about privating my stats, but people like you keep giving me a good reason to keep it public since ya’ll just keep making the same mistake over and over again.

[Morvran]

@Lolman345

I will direct you here real fast It’s time for Gaijin to finally reverse the ahistorical nerf to BOL countermeasures [Poll] - Dev Server “Leviathans” / General Discussion - Dev Server - War Thunder — official forum

Yes, BOL chaff is 75% worse than standard CMs right now, thats why you don’t use it for chaff, currently however, 2 BOL flares roughly equate to a single standard CM in terms of luminosity.

Yes… I know…

But you need to drop 2-4 BOL flares 2-3x more often to provide effective pre-flare defence and defeating IRCCM is significantly easier with pre-flaring. Also, due to how defending against IR missiles is down to “thrust to flare ratios”. High thrust aircraft like the typhoon and weak flares like BOL mean the likelihood of them even working is slim to none.

@Lolman345

Per the chart above 2x.

That chart is not entirely accurate. I’m not sure the exact luminosity difference but that chart is just for demonstrational purposes and isn’t accurate.

@Lolman345

You are aware that you can drop chaff and flares independently right?

You are aware that if you set BOL to a mix of flares and chaff there is no way of knowing what CM is being dropped. By running one type for each size I always know what is being dropped.

@Lolman345

So you admit that you are misusing your large caliber countermeasure capacity by filling them with flare charges even you deem are largely unused.

Holy moly your a bit thick. I have already explained multiple times why LCMs as flares is better. But given you think the F15E is somehow a weak aircraft at top tier I’m not really that surprised. You could give a US main an F22 with Aim-9X and Aim-260s and they’d still claim they needed a buff

@Lolman345

AGAIN STOP USING YOUR BOLS FOR CHAFF! You have the solution to your pains right Infront of you, FILL YOUR LARGE CALIBER CMS WITH CHAFF EXCLUSIVLY PLEASE!

No …

I’m not going to listen to a US main that thinks the F15E is somehow a doa aircraft.

Especially one who has barely played top tier. And definetly someone who has NEVER played a typhoon.

But I can suggest you learn how to play the F15E better if you really think it’s as bad as you claim. Definetly a MAJOR skill issue

@Lolman345

And I would advise you to fly a plane without large caliber flares at top tier as you seem to use them as a crutch.

You mean like the Sea Harrier FA2 which makes the F14 look ice cold in comparison? Sure I can do that… Guess what BOL sucks for flares.

Or the F3 Late which is basically BOL only with how few internal CMs its got.

@Lolman345

So typical… You know, I’ve though about privating my stats, but people like you keep giving me a good reason to keep it public since ya’ll just keep making the same mistake over and over again.

Haha typical US main

[FlyingOstridge]

@Morvran_

looses lock.

Need to tighten up those servos then.

[Lolman345]

@Morvran_

Yes… I know…

Given your statements you don’t seem to.

@Morvran_

But you need to drop 2-4 BOL flares 2-3x more often to provide effective pre-flare defence

2 BOL flares twice as often due to the halved burn time.

@Morvran_

defeating IRCCM is significantly easier with pre-flaring.

Indeed

@Morvran_

Also, due to how defending against IR missiles is down to “thrust to flare ratios”.

Not entirely, exhaust temp, or gaijin’s calculation of such also comes into play, its why the F-14A can be all aspected by even things like the AIM-9J from 5km+ head on if it’s in full AB even though its max AB thrust is only 8020 kgf.

@Morvran_

High thrust aircraft like the typhoon and weak flares like BOL mean the likelihood of them even working is slim to none.

Indeed, although interesting that you seem to posture that the EF is somehow uniquely effected by it’s thrust when it’s spaded combined thrust output is on the low end of top tier. I sure don’t hear SU-30 pilots complaining as hard as you are about trying to avoid IR AAMs even though their total heat signature is vastly larger.

@Morvran_

That chart is not entirely accurate. I’m not sure the exact luminosity difference but that chart is just for demonstrational purposes and isn’t accurate.

Alrighty then, since we are going to play hardball I’ll break out the wall of data just for you.

Large Caliber CM - Standard Caliber CM - BOL
Duration - 4.5 [] 4.4 [] 1.8
Emission profile - 0.4, 4.0, 4.4 [] 0.4,4.0,4.4 [] 0.75,1.65,1.8
Emission 2 - 4.5 [] 1.0 [] 0.6
Chaff properties ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cloud - 0.05,0.1,17.0,20.0 [] 0.05,0.1,12.0,15.0 [] 0.05,0.1,12.0,15.0
Mult - 1.1 [] 0.2 [] 0.05

So, as you can see above, a single large CM is 22 times more potent than a BOL chaff burst by it’s mult alone, a standard chaff CM is only 4 times more effective than a BOL chaff charge per it’s mult alone.

Large CM chaff >>>>>>>> Everything else.

A large CM is roughly 8 times more effective than a BOL flare, and a standard CM is roughly twice as effective as a BOL CM. Thus, the specified chart is accurate for flares.

Due to the lower efficacy difference, it is plainly obvious that large countermeasure charges should be used for chaff exclusively, with BOL and standard CM slots being used for flares.

@Morvran_

You are aware that if you set BOL to a mix of flares and chaff there is no way of knowing what CM is being dropped.

Yes, such is a mistake.

@Morvran_

By running one type for each size I always know what is being dropped.

Yes, such is the right way to go about it.

@Morvran_

Holy moly your a bit thick. I have already explained multiple times why LCMs as flares is better.

Yes, and I agree that large countermeasure flares are better than standard flares and BOLs, however I have stated that large CM charges are better used for chaff if you have BOL pods, not doing so is handicapping yourself.

@Morvran_

But given you think the F15E is somehow a weak aircraft at top tier I’m not really that surprised.

I don’t recall stating that the F-15E is a weak top tier aircraft anywhere in this thread, as far as I am aware, beyond this conversation we are having now I’ve not talked about the F-15E at all.

@Morvran_

You could give a US main an F22 with Aim-9X and Aim-260s and they’d still claim they needed a buff

Ah never mind, you were making another strawman argument … sigh.

@Morvran_

I’m not going to listen to a US main that thinks the F15E is somehow a doa aircraft.

Oh boy two for two on the strawman, please put more words in my mouth.

@Morvran_

Especially one who has barely played top tier.

Been stuck with a completed tree for a while now but ok.

@Morvran_

And definetly someone who has NEVER played a typhoon.

Yes, but you already know that correct? You have been busy looking at my stats so you should already know what I play, it does not dispute the fact that you are using the countermeasures you have been given incorrectly.

@Morvran_

But I can suggest you learn how to play the F15E better if you really think it’s as bad as you claim.

There we go again, where have I claimed in this thread that the F-15E is a bad aircraft? The only components of the aircraft that I have spoken to are, the SNIPER ATP missing a mode of function, and gaijin breaking all radars in game this patch, including the F-15E. I have not once spoken to the total efficacy of the aircraft in this thread.

@Morvran_

Definetly a MAJOR skill issue

Oh man thats rich.

@Morvran_

You mean like the Sea Harrier FA2 which makes the F14 look ice cold in comparison?

You are aware that the spaded F-14A and B both have almost double the thrust due to having, well, two engines. Not to mention the exhaust temp of the pegasus harriers at wep is right around 1500F, meanwhile the F-14B’s non AB operating temp is 1698F, or 1713F in AB, far in excess of what any harrier is capable of outputting in game. Also obligatory “THE F-14A IS AS HOT AS THE SUN” moment, the 100% operating temp of the F-14A is 2107F and the AB temp is 2147F, way WAY in excess of any normal aircraft in game.

So no, both F-14s, ESPECIALLY the F-14A, are vastly hotter than any of the harriers.

@Morvran_

Or the F3 Late which is basically BOL only with how few internal CMs its got.

32 Large CMs + BOLs are fine if you use them right, not to mention the tornados are also not that hot to begin with, with an operating temp of 1626F and an AB temp of 1652F, slightly below that of the operating temp F-14B, but, of course, due to their far FAR lower thrust per engine, the tornadoes are inherently quite cooler.

@Morvran_

Haha typical US main

Yeah nah, I don’t even see a reason to humor that.

[Morvran]

@Lolman345

Not entirely, exhaust temp, or gaijin’s calculation of such also comes into play, its why the F-14A can be all aspected by even things like the AIM-9J from 5km+ head on if it’s in full AB even though its max AB thrust is only 8020 kgf.

No it doesnt. Exhaust temp has absolutely 0 barring on the IR signature of aircraft. None. 0. This is why the HARRIER is hotter than the F-14.

@Lolman345

You are aware that the spaded F-14A and B both have almost double the thrust due to having, well, two engines. Not to mention the exhaust temp of the pegasus harriers at wep is right around 1500F, meanwhile the F-14B’s non AB operating temp is 1698F, or 1713F in AB, far in excess of what any harrier is capable of outputting in game. Also obligatory “THE F-14A IS AS HOT AS THE SUN” moment, the 100% operating temp of the F-14A is 2107F and the AB temp is 2147F, way WAY in excess of any normal aircraft in game.

So no, both F-14s, ESPECIALLY the F-14A, are vastly hotter than any of the harriers.

Exhaust temp is not modeled and engines temps have no barring. It is only thrust output of the engine and thrust to falre ratios. Harrier is hotter than an F-14.

[Lolman345]

@Morvran_

No it doesnt. Exhaust temp has absolutely 0 barring on the IR signature of aircraft. None. 0. This is why the HARRIER is hotter than the F-14.

Does IR missiles and IRST takes Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) in consideration? - Community Technical Support / Gameplay Problems & Advice - War Thunder — official forum

Per Necro, EGT plays a part in the current ability for IR systems to track aircraft.

@Morvran_

Exhaust temp is not modeled and engines temps have no barring.

Exhaust temp is currently modeled as EGT.

@Morvran_

It is only thrust output of the engine and thrust to falre ratios. Harrier is hotter than an F-14.

Even if we removed EGT from the mix, you are aware that the F-14 series has two engines … Right? Who’s total thrust far exceeds that of the harrier?

Oh who am I kidding, you ignored all the parts of the argument you knew you already lost, of course you did not.

[Morvran]

@Gunjob

Confirmed with a dev, the only thing that matters for decoying an IR missile is the thrust to flare signature ratio.

@Gunjob

Not specifically no, but the Harrier’s (all of them) gain the most thrust at lower speeds, so as you turn and flare you’re increasing in thrust and lowering the ratio between the two. This probably explains why it feels hard to flare an IR missile, as you’re probably already going pretty slow while defending.

No, its been confirmed that only thrust to flare ratios matter for flaring missiles. Exhaust is not modeled

@Lolman345

Oh who am I kidding, you ignored all the parts of the argument you knew you already lost, of course you did not.

Usual US main, always thinks they are right.

[Lolman345]

@Morvran_

No, its been confirmed that only thrust to flare ratios matter for flaring missiles. Exhaust is not modeled

I regret to inform you that my source is more current than yours.

And even if we took your source as fact, the harrier still has less total thrust than the F-14A and B, 16040 kgf and 20460 kgf vs 10020 kgf, so your statement in both situations is bunk. Heck, even if we compare single engines the F-14B is still hotter at 10230 kgf per engine.

I can seriously keep this going all day with your fallacies, but this is also an AIM-120C-5 thread and at this rate you are going to bait a ban for both of us, or, well mainly you since you chose to whinge about the EF the moment someone else brought up the F-15E.

[kitsune_qq]

The cope…
Not flanker levels tho

[MrKrabsPattys]

This some crazy shit you have here. Whole paragraphs to describe the idea of how large cm are far better than any other cm and that radars are bugged for all aircraft.

[Elijah1573]

Tbh yeah radars on every top tier jet are horrendous the only jets that dont seem to have problems are the aircraft with ESA radars which so far is still limited to a select few

Shouldnt even really be a problem but gaijin cant model radars correctly i suppose

[Zannafrancy12]

Aim120c5 pulling more than aim120a is dubious, however both missiles are currently exteemly gimped in the manuverability territory and aim120c5 has a longer burning weaker motor which would make it better in hobs shots

[MrKrabsPattys]

Key word “would”. Also the C-5 doesn’t pull more than the A in the game

[NoRespawnsNeeded-psn]

Hopefully c5 is fixed next update

[HighRiskNoReward]

Most of these radars were very reliable before the last few fox3 updates. Now they just let a bunch of stuff pass through.

Any radar that isn’t the rafale one, pisses me off to some degree. Even the F-2A one

[SoyBeanInhaler]

Give it 3 more updates and then they might acknowledge there is a problem.

Then after that 3 more updates until we get a lackluster fix.

Welcome to your missile being in British and Italian tt

[Zannafrancy12]

it wont, everything that is an issue with c-5 is also an issue with aim120a

[Zannafrancy12]

every one of the advanced new aesa radars for ground systems is beyond fucked

[Elijah1573]

Yeah trying to use the tansam radar has me genuinely ripping my hair out from how blind and useless the radar is which if im using the ARH missile is a HUGE issue
CLAWS is decent but still not great
and i dont have the SLM or SPYDER so i have no experience there

[quartas121]

@SoyBeanInhaler

Welcome to your missile being in British and Italian tt

so every US top tier missile for the past couple years