Should Gaijin fix solid shot to be accurate and less punishing to use?
- Yes
- No
Yes you can say “aim for weakspots” or " get good" but put simply, a new player or an experienced one will suffer issues with the round, whether it be simply a panic shot, a mild miscalculation, just shell deviation, simply being gaijined or getting “unlucky”, everyone can and probably has suffered the joys of solid shot. This should be changed.
Solid shot is rather unique for facing APHE, which can one shot you or even overpressure you, with a round that often takes a few more to destroy a target. Disabling a tank may not even guarantee a kill in a situation where there are enemy team mates around as they can deal with you much quicker than you can deal with enemies consistently.
My proposal is not to make it the same as APHE, although Solid shot should generate more fragments than APHE does vs thicker armour. It is simply to accurately depict solid shot in the game which incidentally is also a huge buff generally.
In short the fragmentation generated by solid shot is simply too low by roughly 4-8x or more depending on the shell itself splashing
the cones are too narrow but depends on shell type
and the damage done by each piece of shrapnel is generally too low as well though its hard to differentiate at times
For example the 6 Pounder solid shot should produce more fragmentation (in a more concentrated fashion) than this shell here
That shell is 6 pounder APHE
The general data is as follows:
.303:
Spoiler
It can be concluded that .303 can and will jam mechanisms with splash and can also in some cases also splash into crew compartments via gaps.
20mm Hispano:
Spoiler
The first shells to fragment are to the Lower Inlet Louvre where is caused fragments to hit the witness plate in a 20 x 12-inch area with numerous strikes on the radiator
On the filler cap it did a lot more by perforating the witness plate with the shell itself shattering and causing splash on the 7th bar. The perforations were done over an area of 2 feet and 6 inches x 1 foot and 6 inches, the largest single perforation was 2 inches x 5/8s inch
In several other cases the shell entered and shatter inside causing splash in all sorts of directions
LH Forward inlet produced fragments up to 1 ¼ inch x ½ inch and 1 inch x 1 inch, the shell itself shattered on the 4th bar.
Hull roof above engine adjacent air duct clamp produced a hole 1 ½ x ¾ x 1/4 inches deep and then perforated 3 inches x 1 inch
QF 6 pounder gun:
Spoiler
The first shot to penetrate was one that ricochet down from the mantlet into the fighting compartment, it caused fragments to appear on the driver’s seat (driver killed) and the gearbox would have been very badly damaged, it’s also stated that other crew members likely would have been killed as well. The hole created was 7 ½ inches x 4 inches
A shot to the driver’s side hull at 30 degrees caused the driver to have been a casualty to fragmentation
Another side plate shot caused a hole 7 ½ inches x 3 inches x 2 inches deep and caused a bule on the other side
Two shells to the Lower hull side plate, one entered lower end of the hull and caused a fire but the damage afterwards is not visible, second shell went through the third bogie holing 3 ½ inch diameter, it passed rear of the co driver’s seat and hit the ammo stowage, the nose of the round was still present there and one of the stowed rounds (not full capacity) was damaged . The gear box was also damaged
Another shot to the lower hull side caused fragments to be launched towards the driver and co-driver and damaging the instrument panel
Shots to the turret sides now, one hit and tore out the turret shelf. A second shit hit 13 inches above the lowest part of the turret, it knocked out the gun, the oil was spilt everywhere, and all turret crew were casualties, this is a far cry to in game where only 1 turret crew is lost.
On the other side of the hull a shell penetrated one side ammo stowage and passed through damaging shells, it then passed through the fighting compartment into the ammo stowage on the other side of the tank, other rounds are not specified on the damage caused but measurements are given (will be included in the pictures)
Pictures will be included in a separate tab as it includes 17pr and 75mm
QF 17 Pounder Gun:
Spoiler
Shell to the lower hull side plate caused splits up to 27 inches and caused damage to the ammo stowage. Second shell hit the roof and caused fragments into the fighting compartment as well as part of the roof as big as 36 inches x 12 inches were thrown 15ft into the air. A third shell caused the ammo stowage to be completely perforated and shells destroyed, fragments also landed on both the driver and co-driver killing both and a fire would have resulted.
A shell to the turret front caused the shell to pass through, splash ended up an all of the rear wall and most if not, all turret crew are killed, the shell displaced the rear escape door by about 10 yards. Fragments the size of 4 ½ inch x 2 inches x 1 inch thick.
A shot to the final drive from the side sheered out the track entirely and destroyed the final drive, tank is immobilised.
Shot on the turret side caused the roof over the loader to sheer out over 14 inches and 2 inches deep and the cupola has hit the floor, damage is “normal”. Loader and commander killed, gunner also likely killed, and gun may be out of operation.
Shot to nose plate destroyed welds and likely killed both forward crew and other crew may be casualties. Metal as big as 5 inches x 4 ½ inches were shot through to the rear and broke up
Several shots to the front of the side superstructure, one round caused the pannier below to sheer and likely caused an ammo detonation or fire. Another shot passed through but caused a crack on the rear part of the tank spanning 6 feet 6 inches. A shell caused part of the side plate, 25 inches x 20 inches to be shot into the tank and the shell also broke apart causing splash damage. Fragments also were shot into the tank, but sizes are unknown. Another shell also broke up after penetrating but caused a piece of metal the size of 5 inches x 4 inches to split into several pieces, likely causing severe damage to crew and stowage, this shot also created a hole in the plate 18 inches long. Another shell went straight through the vehicle with a 5 ½ inch x 3 ½ inch hole, it caused a 7 inches x 6 inches metal piece to be launched and become fragments.
None of the 75mm AP was solid shot
Images of 6pr, 17pr and 75mm:
Spoiler
Top half of this image is on about 6pr APDS
F.V.R.D.E Report of Live fire against Churchills:
Spoiler
There is a lot of useless information found in here but there is 17pr APCBC
This trial shows Pictograms and percentages based on kill probability under different kill criterion
The different types of affects are defined as:
Kill Criterion A
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A fire resulting in loss of all crew or loss of vehicle
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all crew members killed
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Mobility and gun destroyed
Kill Criterion B
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Fire resulting in full loss of vehicle
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All crew members killed
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Mobility destroyed
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Main armament out of action
Severe Damage
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A fire that can be extinguished without the crew leaving the tank
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Two, Three or 4 crew members lost
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Mobility damaged but can still move with difficulty
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Main armament damaged but can still fire at reduced rate of fire and accuracy
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Two MGs lost
Slight damage
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One crew lost
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one MG out of action
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Not assessable
Using this info and the overall tests they conclude that the APCBC has a 44% chance of Criterion A kill and 84% chance of Criterion B kill
The severe percentage is more complex and is different for High level and low-level overmatch
In game there is no fire that is fatal but not extinguishable and the vehicle is lost when there is one or less crew members besides the Strv 103 meaning the percentages will be higher than stated due to it
Ballistic Trials vs Tiger II and Sherman:
The sources are now Swedish based, sorry
Note: For most swedish sources some fragments are counted as “sharp fragments” if they penetrate a 4cm wooden screen set 50cm behind the armour plate. Sharp Projectiles are considered capable of killing a person alone and able to do considerable damage to the machinery.
These are likely the detailed ones in the british reports as well due to the smaller fragments being very hard to track and count
Source on sharp fragments:
Spoiler
Unfortunately, the only shells available are the 7.5cm PPRJ shots at strong angles (65 degrees) but it is stated at this angle roughly 18 “sharp fragments” are produced and roughly 2kg of total shrapnel is produced
This means that there was a lot more shrapnel than stated but would have to be clustered with other pieces to do any significant damage depending on the size. When replicated in game almost none or very few fragments have that kind of mass or energy to do that much damage alone
We want Pprj m/41
These are the locations of the fragments in each shot taken
It’s stated that it’s got very high fragmentation and the armour quality is seemingly higher than that of the Sherman which also had high fragmentation as well cracks
It is also stated that “The result with 7.5 cm pvkan m/43 seems to show that the fragmentation effect is greater with an armour piercing projectile (Solid shot) than armour piercing grenade (APHE)”
This is interesting in this case as it shows the splash of the shell is greater due to more material being available meaning there should be more fragments produced than APHE but not as widespread, fragments however do of course bounce but that is something missing from all shells in War Thunder and should be added.
Ballistic Trials against Strv 74 Turret:
Spoiler
Unfortunately, the only AP shell used is on the 20mm as the other two are APDS shells. This however is still not an issue.
20mm is as follows:
The 20mm tests are noted as Shot I: number
2mm of soft iron was used to determine the force of each fragment
The angle of the fragments are roughly around 80 degrees horizontally and vertically from 14-40 degrees
However, one or more sent them at roughly 60 degrees
Several shots made it in and did some damage
With the shrapnel there were often 1 large chunk which presumably is the main chunk of metal dislodged by the round
But the amount total varied from 17-30 pieces depending on angle and speed
The weights of the fragments are categorised into specific weight classes, image below:
I:1 shot out >30 measurable fragments:
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1 “48g” = 33.4g;
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4 “6g” = 28g;
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8 “2g” = 15.g;
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17 “1g” = 15.5;
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Unknown number of <0.5g fragments totalling 7.1g
I:4 shout out >3 measurable fragments:
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1 “48g” = 33.3g;
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1 “24g” = 24.6g;
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1 “6g” = 6.5g;
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1, but not stated, “1g” = 0.6g;
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Unknown number of <0.5g fragments totalling 7.6g
I:6 shout out >28 measurable fragments:
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2 “24g” = 47g;
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1 “12g = 10.9g;
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2 “6g” = 10.8g;
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3 “3g” = 9.4g;
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3 “2g” = 5.7g;
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17 “1g” = 16.1g
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Unknown number of <0.5g fragments totalling 2.1g
I:7 shout out >17 measurable fragments:
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1 “48g” = 39.9g;
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3 “6g” = 17.5g;
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3 “3g” = 9.5g;
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1 “2g” = 1.9g;
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9 “1g” = 8.1g;
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Unknown number of <0.5g fragments totalling 6.5g
As seen above the amount of fragments produced that do damage is considerable for the size of the weapon and shell
A lot more fragments are produced here than in game with the amount being produced giving upwards of 45 individual pieces
This table shows the amount of “Sharp fragments” which is the amount considered to kill a person outright as stated in the previous report
I: number is all we are interested in
As we can see 23 sharp splinters were produced for shot 1 which is roughly half the amount of fragments produced meaning it should cause significant damage
In game roughly 4 fragments are produced, and they do not spread anywhere. The damage caused by each individual hit is also insignificant comparatively
This has shown that there is a lack of spread with the fragmentation, lack of fragments produced, and a great lack of damage caused by each individual fragment. This is on a low calibre weapon on a thin piece of armour
Overall, it shows that shells as a whole produce both huge and small fragments and cause considerable damage with each.
I will add the proper panther trials in time as i will have to read through the actual document instead of “How to kill a panther”.
Overall Conclusion:
These trials have shown that compared to in game solid shot, no matter the calibre, are lacking fragments in terms of amount produced and the splash of shells overall, especially when the shell itself shatters inside of the tank. All shells are missing ricocheting fragments as well. The cones in which the shells produce the fragments are also greatly minimised and can sometimes depend on the angle and what vehicle is being shot at.
The number of fragments produced should be increased by at least 4x as the lowest amount produced and up to roughly 8x what is in game for the maximum based on all of these trials put together.
Fragments should also do slightly more damage with some being able to take out a crew member by themselves and do significant damage to other mechanisms.
The cone in which shrapnel is produced should also be increased so accommodate the number of fragments being produced and as these trials have shown the cone for even the 20mm is considerably too small compared to reality. The 57mm should cover most if not all of the Tiger 1s turret and the 17pr should cover majority of the hull of each of the tanks. Weapons should scale based on these parameters.
On thicker pieces solid shot should act very similar to APHE in game with the round itself causing more shrapnel than the armour itself, this is also called splash. The most significant difference is that it should happen either on entry or when the round attempts to exit and should shatter accordingly. However, in all cases the round still enters as it normally does in game or in some cases the performance is better than in game but within acceptable rates.
The rest however is down to the development team to decide, the RNG chances and how to deal with the different shrapnel
Sources:
Firing trials against a tiger I (reference link)
Firing trials against a panther (To be added in full)
Firing trials against sherman and Tiger II
Firing trials against Strv 74 turret