About Nuclear Escalation and the Bomber Damage Model by BVV_d

[husky_25]

“Su-27” and “lacking radar” in the same sentence 🥀

[esala833]

tunguska is borderline a joke if ur over 6-7km from it, you can easily outpull the missile. The ito on the other hand…

[Morvran]

[VEX]

@BVV_d

This will make them much more valuable targets, and, of course, they will be additionally covered by air defense assets.

This does seem like an interesting mechanic, but I am worried about you adding even more AA on the map…

Currently, I am having the most fun doing what I think you intended us to do, and that is deep strike SEAD missions to kill off the long range AA systems. But with the changes to the airfield SPAA (being on artificial pedestals), this makes going in deep to kill the long range AA installations quite hard, and does not discourage players that want to airfield (AF) camp, as it is still possible to get quite close to the enemy AF. Adding SPAA with proxy shells or Phalanx CIWS around airfields would fix this issue in a better and more healthy way than the artificial pedestals! If you go with reinforcing early warning radars with additional SPAA, then this would almost completely kill off the deep strike SEAD gameplay.

I think adding more AA to the already AA infested NE gamemode is not the solution here, but a reduction of AA in general what is needed, and to bring down the capability of Ai SPAA in NE with that of what is possible in Ground realistic battles! How come that the M163 20mm HE shells self destruct in ground RB after 1.2 km, but can keep going for 4-5 km in NE?

Additionally, the matches end too fast as the ticket counts currently are. An increase of 25 - 30% to the ticket count of both teams would make the games more interesting and get us to the “late game” stage where most (if not all) of the forward AFs are destroyed and everyone is trying to thread the needle to kill off the main AF the enemy team (or a few more ground targets) and win the game!

I know that you cant make the gamemode too easy or too relaxing due to various reasons, but please try to get to a solution where the amount of SPAA on the map makes sense and does not contribute to most of the playerbase deaths in this gamemode. Worst thing is winning a dogfight and then getting kill stolen, not by an ally, but by an allied Ai SPAA!!!

[WanderingGhost]

@BVV_d

Another important feature is the logic behind the infrared seekers on guided missiles. Currently, they are guided to the geometric center of the aircraft, which can result in ineffective hits on large aircraft (likely hitting an empty fuselage section). We plan to change this logic so that the infrared seekers are guided to the hot engine area, which will make the missiles’ impact on the aircraft more localized and, for larger aircraft, more lethal.

And this is fine for things like the AIM-9, R-60, and other similar missiles. However - the AIM-4G even now when guiding to the center of a plane has issues even hitting a large target like a B-52, least in Arcade, which is a problem given it’s contact fusing. Now your talking about this thing guiding to an even smaller portion of the target, if not out right target in the case of something like a B-52 if it’s tracking one of it’s engines hanging off the wing, meaning it will likely be less effective than it already is - which is already borderline ineffective. That might be fine on the F-106 and the J35’s in the Swedish tree that use these missiles but have respectively a 20m rotary gun and 30mm guns if they miss (also in the 35’s case access to AIM-9s) but that further reduces the F-102’s effectiveness, which is already almost 0 due to the missile performance. As is the F-102 badly needs help, in Arcade and from what I gather RB/SB as well as it is, change like this is going to hurt it even more unless you have some kind of major improvement planned for it.

@BVV_d

we’ve put together a plan for DM improvements, which the team is currently working on

Are you sure it hasn’t been implemented yet? Cause yeah, the first days after the patch, it was a lot harder to take out bombers with 20mm guns and the like than before, I was actually having more success with .50 AP rounds knocking out pilots. However, the last 2-3 days in Arcade, bomber survivability seems to have returned to almost pre-change levels, except for the fact that bombs aren’t being detonated to insta-kill them. Not even from the perspective of someone that has 1-2 bombers in their line up, but as someone who mostly plays fighters suddenly it seems like missiles are way more effective and it’s maybe a pass or a burst or 2 in many cases to knock bombers out of the sky with 20-30mm guns.

[noister]

cough… cough…

Dont mind me doing a shameless repost…

Aerial conquest, An insight for the future of Air battles

poll Finally after a long time of community begging for ARB EC, gaijin listened, somewhat. BVVD announced an “Aerial Warfare” mode in development What I have here is a game mode with a collection of ideas gaijin can implement in their own development, in parts, or even as a whole. I present you you, “Aerial Conquest”. This mode focuses on making the game more dynamic, while also representing role of airforces in a start of a war IRL. It provides a large map (for this post, 250x250 km, maybe …

MONTHS before nuclear thunder existed btw

Oh wait, whats this?

again months before nuclear thunder existed, i called it

Its so painful to see man.

The problem with Nuclear escalation is that there are SO MANY SPAA, LIKE I SWEAR THERES LIKE 100X THE AMOUNT OF ITOS which exist irl

Whats worse is that THEY MOVE IN COVOYS TOO, given the shitty spotting system you never get alerted till its too late. AAs should NOT move in convoys.

Even worse? They reload in like 15 - 30 seconds… like lightning fast speed. With multiple launchers they just launch like 20 to 30 missiles just tryping to intercept a single ARM flinged towards them, idk what kind of economy is this.

There is no logistic sense implemented, the reload speed and the usage of the missiles by AAs should be tied to the existing amount of depots on the map.

And lastly, the rewards for high priority targets (like EWR, Long range sam TADS) is nearly non existential alone, even tho the threat and the efforts to kill them is insane.

The nuclear thunder game literally goes like :-
kill planes, get nuke, and grind

doing just strategic sead might be helpfull to your team, but its essentially a SL debt farmer.

Honestly, i wouldnt mind AAs being so OP if there was also a buffer zone between the frontlines, now just going a bit into center and you get greeted by 69420 ITOs or tunguskas.

TLDR what needs to be changed :-

1. reduce sam amounts, more specifically the SHORADs, remove convoy AAs
2. Implement an actually smart trigger discipline logic for AAs
3. Reload rates needs to be increased much more, and needs to be linked to the amount of functional depots on the team. Destroying all depots or block all cargo lines will drastically hamper these AAs
4. Drastically increased rewards for high priority targets
5. A slightly bigger buffer zone between the map

Also please either implement a recon logic or fix the spotting system. Its painfull to almost see nothing until you get like within danger zone of a target. Atleast its good EWR will be somewhat usefull, AWACS behaviour from TEMU.

Also for higher tiers i think it might be better if we see TBDs replaced with AI nuclear ICBMs and Nuclear bombs with nuclear missiles.

[Raldi92]

@BVV_d

Another important feature is the logic behind the infrared seekers on guided missiles. Currently, they are guided to the geometric center of the aircraft, which can result in ineffective hits on large aircraft (likely hitting an empty fuselage section). We plan to change this logic so that the infrared seekers are guided to the hot engine area, which will make the missiles’ impact on the aircraft more localized and, for larger aircraft, more lethal.

Thank you for the update BVVD. One question that arises from the following statement .

Does that mean this new IR seeker logic will be able to make the distinction between PbS ( targeting engine hot parts ), CdS ( targeting aircraft skin ) photodetectors and in the future IIR detectors ( programmable to target specific parts such as canopy ) ?

[noister]

Also its time we see these features for modern brs

@noister

2) Task points :-

(Name can be different) This is somewhat similar to spawn points, however it’s usage is different. They are obtained just like spawn points, doing any productive action. They are used to spawn aerial assets (discussed in next section) and nukes (discussed in a later section). Spawns will be infinite and costs T.P., but not limited by them. As in if you have 0 T.P. you can still spawn in any jet with any loadout (won’t go in negative). This is to prevent hogging of TP even if a player is performing very bad.
Cost of assets and nuke is upto gaijins balancing.

3) Assets :-

This is arguably the best thing in the whole game mode in my opinion. Assets are just AI/bot controlled military vehicles or just strategic bases, airfields etc.

These are not controlled by by the players, and are meant as team property as a whole, supporting the team as a whole.
There are 3 types of assets, Aerial, ground and naval. Out of this, Aerial assets are respectable by the players. (Yes these assets are destroyable by enemy team)

There will be different assets for different BRs, here we are focusing on post fox 3 era

3.A) Aerial assets :-

These are planes in the air, which supports the team and gives them perks as long as they are not destroyed.

3.A.i) AWACS :-

They provide details of enemy Aerial targets (yes players too) with detection going a little bit further than frontiline for 4.5 gens. The data is given on the map, radar screen (as yellow targets) and on screen. For this, all TWS targets should be displayed on screen of the player, with filters available to prevent the screen being covered with irrelevant targets like multiple rockets or very far away targets. AWACS detected targets should display in yellow TWS boxes. Planes with known networking capabilities may use AWACS detection as fire control for their fox 3. (For balance reasons AWACS won’t provide DL once fox 3 locks I.e. if the target is notching, missile goes to iog, awacs wont support it) (for lower BRs with fox 1, fire control is not possible via AWACS). This makes AWACS an extremely high priority targets for the enemy team. Getting within the enemy airspace will allow players to shoot the awacs with their own missiles effectively, destroying them gives a lot of rewards. Their vulnerability to LRAAM is what balances its perks.

Only 1 AWACS can stay in air at a time.

Players can respawn AWACS if the original one is destroyed (this can be done as many times as long as the player has enough TP)

Player who respawned the AWACS will receive rewards for every target destroyed via AWACS guidance (kind of similar to scouting rewards)

AWACS follow a pre determined flight loop path and are immune to friendly aircraft collisions and friendly fire.

3.A.ii) Tankers :-

They provide the team an aerial point for refueling, rearming and repairing (the latter 2 for the sake of gameplay). They also allow airspace in friendly airspace as long as it is 3-4 airspace grids away from the frontline (first spawn of the match will be always from the main airfield)

2 of them exist per team at a time (yes it is respawnable)

Respawned tanker will give the player (who respawned it) some rewards per friendly aircraft rearmed/refueled/repaired.
Supposed to be cheaper than AWACS in terms of TP costs

It is immune to collisions with friendly aircraft and friendly fire. Planes connected to the tanker will be also immune to friendly collisions till they disconnect.

3.A.iii) RECON aircraft.

NOTE :- All positions of enemy ground assets will be unknown at the start of the match, RECON aircraft and player carried recon (like from TGP) are supposed to identify these targets, similar to scouting, gives rewards too.

Around 4 of them in the air spawn at the start of the match per team, they go in each others airspace trying to identify as many assets and targets as they can. They are supposed to be destroyed by enemy SAMs and players oftenly to prevent the information leaking. So at the start of the match, after identifying few frontline sams (discussed in ground assets section), they are expected to be shot down. Hence they would be comparatively cheaper to respawn by the players, and will have to do quite oftenly in fact. In current BRs we can have mig25 sr71 combos and in much higher BRs we can have geostationaty satellites, supposed to be targeted by ASAT missiles.

Each target destroyed, which was identified by a player respawned RECON aircraft, will give the player (who respawned it) some rewards (the reward is supposed to be less than the rewards player gets by doing RECON by themselves)

[Custilist]

I agree, dont ban. As long as you guys get the other effective asm’s out realitvely soon, its all good

[Master_Teaz]

@Morvran_

Even in GRB, Just make the SP cost = 2500

thats in the suggestion (when it gets accepted)

The ban would be in AAB, ARB and ASB mainly

[Morvran]

Will be fun in NRB then :P

[Phantom2hel]

here some ideas.
Self sealing fuel tanks to ACT like that… aka to take NO FIRE to DONT loose fuel… and that was the point of them… that’s why the use them. making the airplanes heavier and less manueverable… and is something that used in todays airplanes.

and i have one question where is the Greek Crew voices??? you adding something you added 3 vehicles and no crew voice? on the other hand you add 1 Turkish event tank… that is limited for the mass…and has Crew voice of the turkey? why?

[BritishJackalope]

@BVV_d One question I have is your current stance on ARH missiles and future implementation of ECM and ECCM. I don’t want to over complicate what has been discussed before, so my question is, will the current parameters for most active missiles, ie speed/range gates and seeker FOV characteristics, remain as they are now?

ARH’s are currently overly sensitive to chaff and more specifically angle gating, and IRL possess far lower speed and range gates than in game. I imagine this is for balancing purposes, with ECM and ECCM not currently modeled, ARH’s would become overly powerful and ruin Air RB.

Even just an acknowledgment that it’s being looked at in the long term would satisfy my inquiry.

[D4nger_CLO5E]

This will Devolve into ARB TDM, my side SPAWN CAMPING your side inside one min because me and my 3 Squad mates sent 6 Kh31PD each at your long rage AA and now it’s gone…for the lower BR’s sure, for 13.7+ smaller is NOT a good idea imo :/

[noister]

Given the much lower amount of SAMs, i am fine with SAMs being extremely well coordinated and OP, the thing is rn there are just so many sams its beyond the comprehension of situational awareness.
I have seen like 80 to 90% of player v player combat interrupted by these sams.

[Target1331]

Overall a very positive post. I admit I haven’t had the opportunity (due to real life) to play Nuclear Escalation much, but it is great to see the improvements in this post, and I’m REALLY looking forward to playing missions with helicopters and transports that don’t involve direct combat.

Regarding bomber DMs, as a player who enjoys playing every aircraft (class), I am ecstatic at the bomber durability improvement, though I also found it a bit overpowered at times.
HOWEVER, I actually hope it stays that way, because even when playing a fighter, it now feels way more fun engaging a bomber, because it is now a challenge and requires a bit of thinking about how to approach it. This is way more fun than before.
The biggest issue to me, though, has been the award recognition, as now it acts a bit like ships did for a while, where someone who causes lots of damage is not necessarily the one getting the kill.

Finally, I do hope that some of the improvements mentioned (esp. the missile aiming for the engines and structure damage) will be more general and not just affect bombers but all aircraft. I actually hope that all the lessons and improvements for bomber DMs will trickle down to all aircraft.

[f111_a]

cant wait until cargo aircraft and helis, i hope chinook and mi26 come

[noister]

I hope it allows actually modells logistics then, rearming AAs with their missiles and all

this will atleast fix the problem with mindless AA spam rn

maybe in future we might see infantry integrated in the mode, with hotspots on the frontline where they capture strategic points

[Ulquiorra6]

@Gnza10091441

A single .50 cal leak should result in a small fire; however, in-game it always results in a large fire.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/data/video/880/880714-8dba2a008510e00b9ddd9a812bd16998.mp4

That’s a FW ?

[D4nger_CLO5E]

I think Morvran_ makes a great point way above…this mode is not supposed to be a short duration, small match! I don’t want a 20 min match…I want a LARGE scale 40 min Minimum type match with MORE then just Air to Air combat for the WHOLE Duration of the match.

Honestly I’m Black Pilled on this…it’s only a matter of time before NE is turned into a ARB TDM and all the AA are Nerfed to the point you could fly an A10 into their NEZ and fly in a line and not get hit. Does the Ai aiming need an adjustment sure…but the way people talk, it’s gonna be an iTO as good as a player controlled 1943 ZSU 37 :/