Wheres the quote? Wheres the quote including the sentence: “M23 should not/does not need to be buffed”
I was around back when that was a thing, or rather even further back when those exploding rounds didn’t even exist ingame and were treated as (useless) pure incendiary rounds.
I wonder why all pure incendiary bullets can’t be just treated as the approximate 0.3-0.5x TNTe that their respective fillings actually are worth. At least then they’d do some damage being treated as weak-ish explosives with elevated fire chances.
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The original discussion in the thread about M23 was exactly that, that some of them are and some aren’t (like the Ho-103 HEF round).
Though honestly based on my testing so far, M23 does seem to be actually doing that. Maybe not as well as an actual HEF round though.
The problem is that Gaijin doesn’t model pressure damage.
Even though in the files explosive have both brisance and some other metric.
Brisance is how explosive can shatter material, the other the amount of energy released in total.
Incendiary compounds have low brisance, they can break appart a shell from the pressure buildup but the fragment velocity would be low.
They release however a lot of energy in the from of heat and the resulting pressure.
M1 Incendiary and German 20mm Incendiary is designed so that the burning incendiary material is released out the front while the projectile travels through the target, ideally striking a fuel tank.
Since explosive shells deal damage mostly from fragmentation, explosive HMG bullets aren’t worth it over incendiary, since they only produce small, light fragments in the first place.
They could deal high damage to fuel tanks, if they happen to strike very close to them but since the chance for that is low, incendiary are generally more effective, as they have better incendiary properties and also cause structural damage from the pressure released.
Particular explosive shells benefit from replacing some explosive material with incendiary.
20mm M56 contains just contains 1.3g RDX but over 10g of very potent incendiary compound.
In WT it’s simply modeled as 10g RDX.
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Cries in HTA.
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M56 scenario sounds like Gaijin almost openly admitting their damage modelling is absolutely dogshit so any attempt at using incendiary is doomed to failure by default.
IMO incendiary shells doing any fragmentation would be nice step up from current BSnmodelling. If MG151/20’s incendiary front half gets split and launched with additional 120m/s, on top of exisiting f.e. 350m/s impact velocity, that’s enough to do some damage. With MK108 there’s a ton more incendiary, so this one should deliver strong damage by overpressure (I think it ripped plane wing wide open during British testing, so it was deemed lethal by aerodynamic damage, and not just by fuel fire - GL getting such result in game!).
But why bother, just buff 20mm HE so cumpetitive dueling br0s can insta-end their tournament dogfights, unless they hit AP/I/SAPI that is, because then they can go … themselves.
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To be honest based on all the games Ive played with it so far (I played a heap more today testing the stealth belt) this is exactly what M23 seems to be doing, just… Not as well as an actual 12.7mm HEF round.
Ill be honest I cant tell exactly how well or badly it does because my aim is horrid with the stealth belts lol, and the M8 is doing something too there. Though I think thats whats setting the fires - im getting a rough 50/50 split between fire kills and HEF style wing/tail snaps, which checks out for the 50/50 split of M8 and M23 in the belt.
I do admit Im making some assumptions here, but I also do admit its not as effective as the M20 belt even if you take my lacklustre aim out of the equation
That said I switched back to the tracer belt for the last game I played and was immediately back to instant obliteration via fireball so yeah.
I mean, I know for a fact M23 creates a small explosion that damages the wings maybe slightly better than AP, but I would NOT bet on that. But it’s nowhere near as potent as 1g of TNT in Breda that can turn whole module orange or red, haha.
Of course if anything, M23 is by far the more realistic of these 2.
For all I care.at this point, M23.can start 2-shotting people just like Berezin does, because that’s like the only scenario that might make Gaijin reconsider the shitshow Real Sh*tter 3.0 is.
Indeed. When I tried making a report for Hispano HEI, which has different stats on US guns, despite being the same shell, I said:
Hispano HEI has only the explosive implemented, US HEI has the whole filler counted as explosive filler.
And that M56 has 10g RDX even though it’s 1.3g RDX and 10g incendiary filler.
Answer: Devs weren’t sure about the explosive power of the incendiary mixture so they implemented it as 10g RDX.
Yet for Hispano HEI, it’s 5.something explosive filler since 12 years while the US shell has 11g.
I tell you, any historical or realistic part only counts when they want it to matter.
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“Luckily” nowadays it makes no difference anyway. Either shell will destroy a plane in 1 hits pretty damn often. But it’s pretty funny Gaijin isn’t even consistent within their own decisions. But we’re talking about a game where for quite a long time F4U4B was sitting 1 BR step higher than pay2win F4U4B which is 100% the same aircraft in the same techtree. So who cares if it’s the same, consistency is probably referred to as “c-word” in their internal communication.
Imagine the outrage if M23 Super-Incendiary was modelled as 5.2g RDX in a similar manner.
And the Japanese 13.2s or Swedish 13.2s do even more damage than Berezins
Funnier still is that Swedish 20mm guns (also the same as Hispanos) use different filling amounts still.
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Yeah, they are a part of same problem, though I’m not sure there’s any real difference in damage between these 3. Berezins have high ROF and are mounted close to each other on Yak-3. All swedish aircraft with 13.2mm are essentialy horrible sans B18 series. The only useful techtree plane with 13.2mm Japanese MGs I know of is A7M2, they are an extremely effective tool for long range kills. Any reasonable man would ditch 20mms and just go with
3-4 12.7-13.2mm MGs with HE bullets at this point.
Anyway, the entire point is, we’re well into space blaster territory, and I don’t see any chance for improvement.
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And yet aren’t .50cals also mounted close to each other in banks of 4-8 depending on the exact plane? Like the wing-mounted guns are in very tight clusters on either side for example.
Last I remember using Swedish 13.2s they were anything but horrible - they were annihilating things better than a lot of 20mm cannons. Same with 12.7mm UB Berezins, and even Japanese 13.2mm Type 3s. It’s a shame that so few planes have these weapons as their main armaments (I have this mental image of a Russian P-47D retrofitted with eight Berezins, or an equivalent Japanese retrofit on something captured).
Also apparently the J21R and A21R early jets for Sweden are supposed to have 13.2s as at least an option to equip instead of the .50cals they were later given after initial conversions from prop to jet power. But knowing Snail both of those with their original armaments will be added as “new” planes in the future due to a general lack of Swedish early-midtier stuff.
I do think we still have room for improvement though - just code all incendiary composition as explosive with a 0.3-0.5x TNT equivalent no different than how various explosive types work.
Where did I say 13.2s were horrible or bad?
J22 is the worst fighter of its BR. The armanent is excellent, planes are so bad it’s painful. J21 and A21 are also very bad planes.
Their 6.7 jets would surely benefit from 13.2mm MGs an awful lot, because their firepower is severly lacking compared to prop driven variants, though even nose mounted 12.7mm MGs firing AP are generally way better than wing mounted due to convergence.
MGs mounted in banks makes not.much difference if they are not firing HE.
2 Berezins on Yak-3 woth 50% HE bullets provide equal or better firepower than P-47D with 8 .50 cals, because .50 cals have no HE bullet.
But P-47 with 8 Berezins even with “only” 250 rounds per gun - 6400 rounds per minute, with 100% HE belt that would mean any airfraft in sights for even 0,075s (that’s the time between shots with 800 ROF? would get annihilated, this coupled with excellent range and ballistics. That would be damn hard to rival, especially on a decent platform like P-47.
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But would giving .50cal pure incendiary bullets that level of lethality seen on Berezins be game-breaking or not? And I suppose this also applies to the Finnish 12.7mm Lkk/42s which use American bullets.
Please refrain from insulting my beloved J21
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I mean, incendiary is the most hated and misunderstood vy Gaijin bullet/shell type.
Big incendiary shell, like MK108’s incendiary IRL produced enough overpressure to blow bomber and Spitfire wings open to an extent it was deemed lethal aerodynamically.
In game 30mm incendiary weighting around 330/370g (depends on the page of the same document, that Gaijin loves to reference - it contains some bad errors) with like 90-130g of incendiary composition deals way less damage than a German 13mm bullet at 35g with 1g of PETN. Absolute cinema.
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They used to be one shot kills with hits to fuel tank but that was removed a long time ago.
Which is funny because thats as realistic as it gets.
30mm Incendiary to a fuel tank and the tank is done for.
20mm Incendiary, and later other caliber shells, was specifically built because Germany had to intercept so many strategic bombers, which from behind gave a target area of around 25-33% of fuel tanks.
As setting bombers on fire was seen as the most effective means to bring them down.
Since even 30mm Mineshells required several hits to cause a bomber not to make it back to base, due to structural damage, while a single 30mm Incendiary in the right place meant it would most likely burn down, they started to use them in 1:1 ratios with Mineshells.
And with +25% target area, you basically had the same or better chance to bring down a bomber anyway.
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There are 2 Incenday ones. The Brgr. of 330g and 140g which uses the same shell as M.Gr. despite it missing from the name and the M.Brgr. which is a dual HE Incendary round of 370g with a mix of HE (some 50g iirc) and Incendary. It was to replace all other rounds (except the M-Pzgr.)
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