15 cm s.F.H. 18 L/30 (Sfl) auf Mittlerer Waffenträger Panther (dünnwandig)

[Ghostmaxi]

[Would you like to see this in-game?]

• Yes
• No

I would like to suggest the Mittler Waffentäger Panther dünnwandig mit 15 cm s.F.H. 18 L/30 (Sfl.) which was a project started as early as 1942, developed in lots of different forms till 1945, just to be canceled (multiple times), which with the exception of 1x Unique for the latest developed 15 cm version thinn walled, lightened version of Panther hull, specially for the vehicle was build, by a telex message from 6th February 1945, which stated that the chassis without turret that Krupp required for the Schwere Panzerhaubize was waiting at the steel works in Hannover. Thus this makes it a incomplete Prototype from the game perspective. (On the drawing further differences are visible.)

In game this would give a mobile, relatively armored, fully turreteted (open top) 15 cm s.F.H. 18, which would be a fun mobile .50 cal proof derp gun, similar to the Hummel, but better.

History:
The history is quite long, so i summary the beginning and jump to the end, as the inbetween development doesnt really show the end development anyway as it often changed and many different vehicles on the same chassis where cancelled and many different kinds were denied.

In early 1942 the Waffen Prüfamt 4 (which were for field artillery) placed requirements for a designe for a heavy artillery vehicle, which had to use as many Panther parts, which at the time was also new, for the same reasons, the PzH III/IV came to be, to simplefy and streamline production, after all the Hummel was more of a stopgap, untill dedicated medium PzH (Panzer Haubize) were ready (which SPOILER, never came to be).
While for the lighter guns (10,5 cm) the Geschützwagen III/IV was also developed, they also wanted Heavy arty of 12,8 and 15 cm, as these guns were both heavy and difficult to move effectively.

These guns to be mounted included the 12,8 cm K. 43 and 15 cm s.F.H. 43, which also both didnt go into production, instead the K.44 L/55 (and Pak 80 L/55) went into production and the s.F.H. 18 L/30 was just continued.

Requirements were:

• Keep weight down (as such Open top)
• Use as many of the Panther
• Possibly switch over to Panther II parts (at that time the future was still seen in that, tho cancelled in June 1943)
• Carry both the 12,8 cm and 15 cm Gun
• Just like the other Waffenträger have the ability to dismount the gun, use it as Field Gun and have the chassis act as a Ammo carrier.
• Be able to be transported by Rail
• Carry at least 30 rounds of ammo (idealy 60)

These requirements were send to Krupp and Rheinmetall which both took part in the competition.
So the following timeframe from July 1942 and up a multitude of designes were put in for Waffenträger with the 12,8 and 15 cm guns were submitted, with all beeing denied for one reason or the other and the whole development was cancelled on 22th September 1944, as such while ill add some of the drawings in a folder, ill jump acoss this part. In short the 12,8 cm version was denied as a whole and only some interest was shown till 1944 in the 15 cm version, while as sayed above was stopped, except Krupp didnt stop and made the drawing Bz 3445 on October 12th for the Mittlerer Waffenträger s.F.H. 18 auf Panther dünnwandig, which had thinner armor, no hull MG and different fittings for the big open turret, 50 rounds storage and a cylindrical turret, which saved another 7 tons of weight compared to the revious designe. (On the drawing further differences are visible.)
Then in the following in a telex message from 6th Feburary 1945, a chassis without turret ordered by Krupp for the Waffenträger was ready and waiting at steel works in Hannover.
A report from 20th Feb 1945 listed projects to be immediately termineted duo to war situation, which included the 15 cm s.F.H. 18 auf Panther Bauteilen.

As such its story ends there.

Here are Pictures of previous design drawings:(Click to show)

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And here the final drawing of the produced hull (In this form or possibly another, thats sadly not clear)

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The Vehicle:
Mittlerer Waffenträger Panther Dünnwandig
Weight: 36 t
Engine: HL 230 P30 700 Ps / 3000 Rpm (Goverened 600 Ps / 2500 Rpm)
Speed: 46 km/h and up (depending if governed or not)
Crew: 6
Gun: 15 cm s.F.H. 18 L/30 (Sfl.) with 50 rounds
Armor: 30-40 mm (?)

The Gun:
15 cm s.F.H. 18 L/30 (Sfl.)
Elevation: -5° to + 65° Traverse: 360° at 20°/Sec
Ammo: 50 rounds

Overall ammo allready in game and a good bunch of more including rather unique ones.
The ammo is upwards interchangable, that means, that the ammo fired by the s.I.G 33 can be fired by the s.F.H. 13 and 18, the s.F.H. 13 can fire a couple more rounds and then the s.F.H. 18 that can fire a big array or rounds.

First 2 are allready in game, but now with new driving bands (and reduced charge, cince they have thinner walls (Intended German Tank and A. TK. Gun development states that with different driving bands they are fired in the different guns, the I.Gr. 39 is an rebuild I.Gr. 38).).

Document of Tank and AT gun Development

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Ammo:(Click to show)

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AP:

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Gr.19 Be (Beton) (Saphebc (No Tracer)) 43,5 kg 3,22 kg Ph-Salz und H.10 (4,6046 kg TnTa) 520 m/s 50-100mm/10m

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Gr.39 Hl/A (HEAT) 24,58 kg 4,16 kg (5,32kg TnTa) 465m/s 185mm/all

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15 / 8,8 cm Pzgr.39 TS (Apcbc-DS) 9,85 kg 0,059 kg H.5 880m/s 193mm/10m

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HE:

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Gr.19 (He-TF (No Tracer)) 43,5 kg 5,208 kg Amatol and Np.10 (6,67kg) 520m/s

Also Pressed filler of 4,336kg Fp.02. Or also with Bu1d. of 4,05kg Np.30 and Azin.

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I.Gr.38 (He (No Tracer)) 38 kg 8,6 kg Amatol and Np.10 (11,01 kg TnTa) 465m/s

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15 / 12,8 cm Sprgr.42 TS (HE-TF-DS (No Tracer)) 27,15 kg 3,4 kg Amatol 645 m/s

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R.Granate 19 (He-TF Rocket assisted (No Tracer)) 43,9kg 505m/s (Start velocity)

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Utility:

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Gr.19 Nb. (Smoke (No Tracer)) 39 kg 0,62 kg Np.10 (1,054kg TnTa) 543m/s

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Kt. (Canister Shot (No Tracer)) 40 kg Lead or Steel Balls 530m/s

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Source:
Special Panzer Variants Hilary Louis Doyle
Panther Variants 1942-1945 Osprey New Vanguard
Panther & Its Variants Walter J Spielberger
Geschossringbuch II
Munition der s.F.H. 18
German Tank and Anti Tank gun development

[jon_man1199]

Sure why not, just considering we already have stuff like the Ostwind II in the game

[foxmeup]

no, it’s paper and won’t ever (not in the near future at least) be added anyway. There are many many other real vehicles that have yet to be added before this is even considered.

[Ghostmaxi]

As i stated in the suggestion, the hull was build.

[foxmeup]

kranvagn has more chance to be added to be honest (and i would support it, not that).

[Ghostmaxi]

Thats your rightfull opinion.

[Sunagakure]

It could be a great addition in the future, when there are no more vehicles to add (I don’t want the game to become WoT for now) or come as an event, which I support since at least the chassis has been built

[ChieftainWarrior]

Images of the slightly older variant of the vehicle (not dünnwandig) from TE:

Shame none of the other Waffenträger Panthers were partially produced, would love to have seen Rheinmetall’s Skorpions in particular.

[CMOT4356]

the first ones looked like the Skorpion from WOT

[Ghostmaxi]

Updated the Ammo.

[Drya_d_BMD]

I’m not sure about the Vehicle in general but the Rocket assisted shell sounds interesting. Maybe if we gat some other Vehicle with this shell would be nice.

[OsirisD]

I’ll take anything like this over another copy pasted vehicle. It’s different, it’s interesting, it’s something new. As long as it was partially build we should get it.

[Ghostmaxi]

Well, of course the Hummel would also have access to it.

[Insanerobert]

There’s a ton of Self-Propelled Howitzers Germany had we could use in-game and were full serial production, so I would say no to this suggestion.

[Ghostmaxi]

And how many of those have the 15 cm s.F.H.18 L/30?
And how many are on a mobile chassis?
And how many have more than 10-15mm armor?
And how many have a turret?

[Insanerobert]

I would not focus on these exact criterias, but more likely of what was built and used by the Wehrmacht during World War 2 or not and there’s plenty of Self-Propelled Howitzers with potent guns that were fitted on a mobile chasis and can be used without additional help and while mobile, even if it has thin armor and a casemate-like gun mount instead of a turret.

Here’s a brief list of other SPH vehicles we could have for Germany with a 15cm gun:

• Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz 33B: poor gun traverse, but has a 15cm sIG 33 potent gun
  

  

• Panzerfeldhaubitze 18M auf Geschützwagen III/IV (Sf) Hummel: same 15cm gun as this post, good gun traverse and driving mobility for it’s size
  

• 15 cm sIG 33 (SF) auf Pz.Kpfw.38 (t) Grille Ausf. H: first iteration of this kind of vehicle based on Panzer 38(t) Ausf. H chasis and using a 15cm sIG 33 howitzer gun, with 5 degrees limited gun traverse but has a decent 50mm of frontal armor
  

  

• 15 cm sIG 33 (SF) auf Pz.Kpfw.38 (t) Grille Ausf. K/M (depending on variant/sources): the improved and mass-produced variant of this kind, using the same Panzer 38(t) chasis but in a configuration more simiar to Marder III
  

• 15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf.) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper(f): based on captured and modified Lorraine 37L vehicles in France
  

• 15 cm sIG 33 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.H: a Panzerkampfwagen III chasis modified to field a 5cm sIG 33 gun, 1 built but lost on the front in Africa
  

• 15 cm sIG 33/2 (Sf.) auf Jagdpanzer 38(t): based on the Jagdpanzer 38(t) Hetzer chasis, little is known but it was built at least once and orders put for a total of 30 vehicles
  

All of them could carry their own ammunition, were fully built and the list could be bigger if we also include the 10.5cm SPH variants for Germany, although not as potent as the 15cm ones they had access to APHE and HEAT rounds to compensate for their smaller HE rounds in case of anti-tank combat needs.

My only concern of 15 cm s.F.H. 18 L/30 (Sfl) auf Mittlerer Waffenträger Panther is that this vehicle existed only in blueprints in a full build, without proper specifications like gun traverse, ammunition count, crew needs etc. and a lot is left to be guessed about the vehicle. As for the others - we know everything that’s needed and all the vehicles of the list above can be used in direct fire, have a decent gun depression, average or good mobility, atlhough I agree that a couple from this list will suffer from a limited gun traverse like the 15cm sIG 33 B Sfl we have already in-game.

[Ghostmaxi]

@Insanerobert

a couple from this list will suffer from a limited gun traverse like the 15cm sIG 33 B Sfl we have already in-game

Not just the traverse, but also power and ammo load.
The s.I.G.33 L/12 has for the 38 kg HE round 240m/s,
the s.F.H.18 L/30 goes with 43,5 kg 520m/s
And the s.F.H.13 L/17 some 320m/s

the s.F.H.18 can use APCBCDS (8,8 cm) ammo, got a SAPHEBC round, the rest doesnt have access to it (or it is simply worse than using the plain HE ammo with the s.F.H.13).

The 105s are nice, but not derp guns.

Also i suggested pretty much everything you listed. And none tick all the boxes of the things this suggestion can.

[Ghostmaxi]

@Insanerobert

15 cm sIG 33 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.H: a Panzerkampfwagen III chasis modified to field a 15cm sIG 33 gun, 1 built but lost on the front in Africa

That thing is in game nearly useless, as it has a fixed positive elevation, it cant even aim to 0°.
Your picture depicts it with the barrle in the lowest position.

[Insanerobert]

@Ghostmaxi

Not just the traverse, but also power and ammo load.
The s.I.G.33 L/12 has for the 38 kg HE round 240m/s,
the s.F.H.18 L/30 goes with 43,5 kg 520m/s
And the s.F.H.13 L/17 some 320m/s

I think the rounds would be fine as long as the explosive filler is big enough. Even 15cm sIG 33 B Sfl (previously named Sturmpanzer II - but I’ve heard it was the wrong designation) we have already in-game used to be brought up a lot in uptier battles and kill tanks in 1 shots, with a few heavily armored exceptions (like KV or IS series).

@Ghostmaxi

Also i suggested pretty much everything you listed. And none tick all the boxes of the things this suggestion can.

Good to know. I hope we will see those vehicles in the future. Vehicles like Grille might be a bit more awkward to aim, but others like Wespe and Hummel should have good enough gun traverse to feel good to play.
I know that Mittler Waffentäger Panther has some nice stuff on paper, but this is what worries me - it’s all guesswork since the vehicle was not fully built. Perhaps it’s the bitter taste of what World of Tanks used to do in the past with their paper additions (prototypes that were never built and used to have those amazing perfomance stats - that in reality might actually could never work) and that worries me and makes me want to avoid seeing all that nonsense in War Thunder being repeated again.

@Ghostmaxi

That thing is in game nearly useless, as it has a fixed positive elevation, it cant even aim to 0°.
Your picture depicts it with the barrle in the lowest position.

Wasn’t aware about that, since the information I could find on this vehicle were rather limited. Good to know nonetheless, thank you for the information. I’m aware that Wehrmacht did enough field modifications with various other vehicles and they often put various howitzers, field AT guns or anti-air guns on a plethora of vehicles captured from France, Russia and other nations. Sadly, many of these field changes are obscure and they often lack information, if not even being mentioned alltoghether.

[Ghostmaxi]

@Insanerobert

I think the rounds would be fine as long as the explosive filler is big enough. Even 15cm sIG 33 B Sfl (previously named Sturmpanzer II - but I’ve heard it was the wrong designation)

Yeah the I.Gr.38 is powerfull, but hard to hit over range duo to very low velocity.

And yes the name Sturmpanzer II was wrong, because Sturmpanzer Series were similar to the StuGs, with the requirements/basics: Good frontal armor, Fully enclosed.
The only actual Sturmpanzer vehicles, are the StuIG 33B, Sturmpanzer IV and Sturmtiger.