That doesnt track though as none of the British 105 guns have HEAT-FS.
And the Desert Warrior example.
I wouldnt say that none, the vickers mk3/11 and vfm5 have heat
That’s a fair point
Because they’re not named “Gepard”. Type 87 is almost identical to it, PGZ 09 is a huge upgrade in anti-air work, the Marksman… exists.
Also, you missed the worst offender of them all.
It is incredibly slow in acceleration and struggles with mild uphills, a common feature amongst almost all wheeled vehicles.
The RCV(P) has an actual stabilizer, the Luchs does not. I haven’t even bothered with the Luchs yet, but my Wiesel 1A4 has NEVER been accurate on the move despite having 56deg/s vertical elevation speed. This doesn’t work when you’re a light tank running around at 50kph+.
.50cals are not exactly rare either, but are far less common outside the USA; the XM800T will meet far less of them.
7.62 AP can only pen the rear, and will do next to no damage to the engine. It is also far more resistant to .50cals, with about half of the frontal area being immune to them even at point blank.
Demonstrably false as I have done above; and in any case the extra crewmember will help greatly.
Yes, that is the result of being better than them. The XM800T also uses the M139 instead of the Rh202, which comes with a large increase in rate of fire; as if that wasn’t enough, the Rh202-equipped vehicles DO NOT have a full DM63 belt, so only 75% of their shots actually do damage and this drops their… effective rate of fire, put it that way, to a little over half of the XM800T’s (600rpm vs 1050rpm), which DOES get a full DM63 belt.
Marder 1A has only HVAP that never works, it’s huge and kinda slow, and limited to 4 terrible ATGMs. The 1A3 adds APDS, useless gen1 thermals, and (unlike the XM800T) it’s still unstabilized and huge. The only redeeming qualities are the large ammo capacity and the front engine sometimes eating someone’s shots, but that requires your opponent to screw up and not just target the near-guaranteed ammo explosion in the turret.
And no, neither get the resupply box so you ARE limited to those 4 ATGMs while in a vehicle that is slower and bigger than the XM800T.
You seem to be inferring that people complained about Gepards, they don’t, just like every other KDA armed vehicle I mentioned. The Gepard has some complaining back when it first came out with pure APDS belts available but that got fixed rapidly.
What part of “marksman armed tanks” did you not understand?
Yes you described an issue present for all wheeled vehicles, yet they sport superior high speed performance, that is not a unique thing.
Yes, and its at 7.7 with that stab, while the XM800T, which got sent up due to it’s stab, is 8.0.
Its got a max of 48 degrees per second vertical traverse speed like every other RH202 mount, literally every vehicle that mounts that gun has identical handling stats bar the MBT-70 secondary mounts.
Thats the same case with the stabbed RH202s as well, if you are hitting your max speed the gun still bounces all over the place, thats a normal thing for most stabs in game.
Imagine my shock that the small section that is completely flat is penetrable, that and you once again completely missed the point I was making, the Wiesel is RHA, the XM800T is not.
The cherrypicking is strong with this one, very nice that you chose to point out the only parts covered with actual RHA on the vehicle, how about we look straight from the front like most engagements and see if there is any actual penetrable locations on either vehicle for 7.62mm AP. (That and I think we both agree that .50 cals shred both vehicles, testing such is a largely moot choice).
Both vehicles retain a strip below the pike which can be penetrated to deal damage to different things, in the case of the XM800T, the ammo, and the Wiesel the transmission. The former will kill the tank and the latter will just disable it.
The only other location that the Wiesel can be penetrated is the obviously exposed gun, but that weapon is designed as exposed and sports no armor. Meanwhile the remaining hulls of both vehicles is frontally immune to 7.62mm AP.
There is a possible small shot trap to kill the gunner on the XM800T through his cupola but that is extremely hard to hit unless you are facing it side on.
250 RPM higher rate of fire is not a “large” increase in ROF, the RH202 already sits at 800 rpm, that is exceedingly quick for a autocannon to begin with. That and as of now, people are advocating for the XM800T to go to 8.3 that is what I’m stating is incorrect.
Cry me a river, gaijin arbitrarily gimps random autocannons across the board with ahistoric mixed belts, get back to me when the bradley stops feeding mixed belts, which its been doing since it got added and physically cannot do as HEFI and APDS/FS require different feed ports.
And is 7.7, not 8.0.
And far superior armor to all of the aforementioned RH202 sporting vehicles including the XM800T, it also gets a LRF unlike the XM800T.
You act like any vehicle mentioned has any chance of surviving a direct hit from an actual proper gun, the marder hull has a chance to deflect stuff due to it’s high existing angle. Most bagel players should know that the UFP of the marder hull just does not obey physics sometimes, and the Marder 1A3 sporting a extra 8mm really helps with that weirdness if you use it right.
But beyond that nothing mentioned prior has anything similar, the Wiesel gets overmatched by most guns, the XM800T is a aluminum box with a pancake of boom under the turret crew, the luchs has volume, but gaijin screwed it over like many vehicles now by making the turret basket part of the turret drive, and the RCV (P) is ok? Its not gotten the luchs treatment and has more crew, but its just tall.
Like every “light tank”, I’d love a ammo box for the bradleys or similar, but gaijin has seen fit for that not to occur.
As stated prior though, these other options exist at lower BRs, the XM800T is already above all of them while sporting many of the same features, its biggest boon is that it is a tiny box. I’m fine with it going up a bit, but at 8.3 it gets supplanted by the M3 CFV and the US returns to having only a single tech tree 8.0 vehicle.
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When I see complaints about an ~8.3 SPAA being OP, 99% of the time it’s the Gepard in question, even though it is the second worst from the bunch. Chieftain Marksman still takes top prize.
So you are aware of this issue, yet still claim the RCV(P) is as fast as its hp/t would have you believe?
Because:
All of this are things the XM800T does not have to deal with.
Quite a bit over 48, still doesn’t help it remain stable. Driving on the test drive map, on the PAVED ROAD, at 50kph it is already very unstable even when not changing direction and half the shots would miss.
Only over 75kph, which is plenty fast already. Up until then they are perfectly accurate.
Matters not when it has 8mm of it.
Oh so NOW the XM800T has RHA? Crazy.
In the Wiesel, a hit through the transmission cover will turn it yellow. In the XM800T, the front just so happens to be exactly the same armor as the penetration of 7.62 AP, which means it has next to no damage left. A minimal amount of angling, intentional or not, will stop it. Any distance, even just 50m, will stop it.
Not so fast. The Wiesel only has 2 crew and the front is 8mm angled, a kill in just a few hits is near guaranteed. But the XM800T has far more protection and has to lose 2 of its 3 crew, requiring more hits.
So while .50s WILL kill both, it is far harder to .50cal an XM800T.
Not that quick when 25% of its ammo does nothing. That puts it at 600rpm, which is just 50 higher than say… the BMP-2MD’s at 8.7, as a convenient example. That one also has HE in its APDS belt, but a full APHE belt is available.
And you yourself admit that gaijin gimps certain autocannons - the Rh202’s APDS belts have been gimped and the XM800T’s have not.
It fires HVAP with shatters even against light tanks such as the Sheridan. It is a terrible vehicle and 7.7 is way too high.
It does. But that armor isn’t stopping anything above .50cals or very poorly aimed weak autocannons.
I have a clip, too large to post here, of me in my Ho-Ri firing a shot at a stationary XM800T from about 500m away. The shell hit him directly, passed through the two turret crew, and killed neither. He, of course, survived!
A direct hit from a 105mm cannon firing full-caliber AP ammo. Can’t even claim it was shitty APCR or APDS subcaliber shells having poor spalling.
99% of the time you get overmatched or it’s a postwar shell that has no issues going through it. The most useful parts are the engine eating a shot (sometimes they’ll just go through it) or the completely empty rear compartment fooling someone.
It is too big in every dimension, poorly armored, and just too slow. Even if its fast eventually, it takes too long to get up to speed and has a terrible turning radius. Reverse is very slow and the poor steering angle makes it impossible to go anywhere in a short time.
The Bradleys have more than enough ATGMs already. The Marders get 4, and they’re much worse.
these *WORSE options exist at lower BRs
It combines the best features of each vehicle, which none of the “other vehicles” have. For that alone it deserves to be higher than any of them.
You’ll never believe how many 7.7s japan has
When I see complaints about an ~8.3 SPAA being OP, 99% of the time it’s the XM246 in question, the Marksman KDAs only appeared in conversation after spookston made a video about the swedish make, the only British SPAAG that has ever had hate directed at it is the falcon.
As fast as any other wheeled IFV of a similar HP/T, the LAV-AD sits at a similar 20.5 HP/T and is widely considered a speedy vehicle.
Same max speed as the LAV-AD and nearly the same HP/T,
Please name me a wheeled IFV or similar that actually has a full speed reverse gear beyond the Luchs.
Accelerates at the same rate as the LAV-AD and such is considered fine
Once again like every non front and rear wheel turning wheeled vehicles.
48 is the stock aced value for all RH202 mounts, and is more than enough to fire on the move, or more importantly, short stop for most engagements.
My guy is forgetting that there is no suspension travel on the XM800T, if you are going 43+ mph your stab wont be helping you unless you are on kursk.
When its got it’s full protection volume it does.
Yes please, just omit that that the entire hull is aluminum.
Thats not how penetration damage works my guy, lower pen chance reduces depth not damage, it also reduces spall, but MG fire does not generate spall so thats a moot point to begin with.
Amazing that this also fully works to make the front of the Wiesel immune too, weird.
Amazing, every single thing you said was wrong.
Just gonna forget about the interior plate behind the 8mm right? Oh thats not going to do anything … except make it so .50 cal AP cant kill the gunner from the front unless you are literally flat up against the Wiesel.
Meanwhile the XM800 crew cannot body block for the others, the driver is fully exposed and can be shot through his hatch and viewports up to 300m and the turret crew can either be hit through their hatches or the turret ring, which also allows for the ammo to be hit.
Yes, I am in no way defending it, all of these autocannons should have pure belts, there is 0 reason they should be mixed, especially given many have HE that is ballistically different from the AP rounds.
Indeed, I find it would be fun at 7.3, yet it may have more issues due to it’s rounds.
Should have used HE. Still generates more than enough spall on the Wiesel or XM800T even without fusing so possibly a skill issue there.
It’s front plate requires a 133mm or larger round to trigger overmatch and is already leaning back at 76 degrees, this is why it can easily bounce subcaliber rounds when working a ridgeline due to most subcaliber rounds being far smaller than 133mm in diameter, such is very common with the bagel which sports 8mm less armor at a higher BR.
Now if you are getting engaged by ruski UFOs and mega caliber guns, yes, those have a far easier time going through your front plate than say APDS when in the proper position.
Statement exists earlier on.
Cool, tell that to gaijin, as stated they chose to not give IFVs and light tanks ammo boxes as I stated.
Side grades or inferior in very specific ways.
Does it now, I dont see the XM800T sporting a LRF, thermals smoke launchers, or a coax.
Whattaboutism wont get you anywhere my guy.
Even on tanks with low armor you can still trigger the fuze by shooting at modules like the trasnmission or engine
This is before the XM246 even existed in the game.
ZA-35, a much better Gepard in every regard if all you want to do is get ground kills.
I have also read constant complaints of it not being that speedy.
11kph reverse on the RCV(P) vs 43kph reverse on XM800T. Even among just wheeled vehicles, the RCV(P) is slow.
I don’t think you grasp quite how bad it is when reversing.
I can’t even fit it all on screen.
The Type 16 also only turns its front wheels, but had a much smaller radius despite also being larger and doing it in less than half the time.
This is important because if you have to reverse away from something that is driving towards you (very common when playing rat tanks) in the RCV(P) you just die. You can’t reverse fast enough, you can’t turn around in time, even if you do your acceleration sucks.
The XM800T can reverse at 43kph, can turn on a dime and do it incredibly quickly. I still don’t get how you somehow think these two should be the same BR.
Wiesel front being only 8mm means 7.62 can still pen it out to 300m head-on, vs <50m on the XM800T. USA main cope really is strong.
Still has RHA, and plenty of it.
It is, you’re uninformed. For all kinetic penetrators, damage is based on the remaining velocity it has.
Just gonna forget about the entire left half the vehicle? Not to mention that to hit the firewall, they’re also hitting your engine which will get you killed very very soon.
Dead center, from a high velocity 105mm cannon. XM800T has no spalling.
105 works just fine, and even 90mm M82 shot will dig in.
Side grades? As in, the side grade of losing a stabilizer, the side grade of being slower in every situation that isn’t on a paved road in a straight line for a longer distance than you’d ever need to drive for? The side grade of not having a stabilizer and worse protection everywhere?
Those side grades?
There’s a bug report for an LRF, and in any case DM63 has very high velocity. Wiesel thermals are good but you can’t do anything with them aside from spotting one guy very far away, especially now that nothing at these BRs has night battles.
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non sense. definetly have seen people talking about gepards a lot.
marders not as much.
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Yes, he did not.
If you mean when it was first introduced yes, otherwise no.
The ZA-35 lacks APDS full stop like the XM246, it is not at all better than the gepard for ground kills, both are directly inferior as they only sport the same AP-T rounds that the gepard does.
And I’ve heard complaints that it is too fast, the Hydras are OP and that the 25mm was overperforming at launch.
So you cant, good to know.
And whats the primary difference between the Type 16’s drive train and this?
Hmmm curious.
Lmao.
Literally only on the side strips and they are 6.35mm, that is the only RHA on the vehicle.
Lol, no, it is determined based upon the projectile weight and diameter.
You mean the side of the vehicle which also has the firewall plate right infront of the driver? That still provides internal protection my guy.
Actual certified skill issue.
Yes, that is not overmatch, overmatch requires x7 the thickness of the plate to come into effect as stated.
As I said, subcaliber projectiles have a tendency to bounce off of the plate quite commonly.
- ATGM
- Thermals
- Actual armor
- Road speed as you mentioned
- Smoke launchers
Yes, and its a US vehicle so the chance of it getting fixed is slim to none, next.
That and if you somehow think gen 3 thermals are somehow not a boon then you dont understand top tier.
I never stated people were complaining about marders, and no Gepards have not been a issue for years now, but now that the XM246 exists people actually talk about the AP-T being extremely powerful, but only on the XM246 that is.
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Literally doesn’t matter when the SAP shell is still there
That IS the Type 16’s drivetrain. Two steering axles, same as the RCV(P).
Demonstrably false, but the effort of proving would be lost on you.
Clearly working just fine regardless.
USA tree is not a victim of anything, they got Abrams reload lowered to 5s just by complaining about skill issues.
Delusional. Go to any video about the Gepard, ZA-35, or ItPsV and you’ll see plenty of players (as well as the creator) talking about how broken they are.
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Does spall have nothing to do with armor plate thickness? If if I shoot a sheet of tin foil with 120mm apfsds, I doubt it will create plenty of spall, even though it has plenty left over penetration
Is that not one of the reasons “no armor is best armor” exists?
the only reason 246 is better than gepard is the barrel placement and has more armor
thats like it tho its slow as hell and bigger target than gepard
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My brother in christ, it has the same exact belts as every other KDA armed vehicle but without the APDS rounds. The literal only difference in ammo is that it does not get APDS, that is directly worse than the APDS armed KDA equipped tanks.
Tell me, which one of these belt lists is the XM246, Type 87 and ZA-35, and dont go looking at the belt prices, I will know.
The RCV(P)'s centerline tire does not turn my guy, it has 3 degrees of play, it is the same as the second axel of the LAV-AD, only the front wheels provide actual turning power, the Type 16 by comparison can angle the second set of wheels enough to actually turn.
Please, stay in your delusion, maybe some day you can actually learn how the underlying components of this spaghetti machine of a game function.
Sure my guy, you still said overmatch, its not, and the documentation for overmatch can be found extremely easily. I do find it funny that you gracefully just ignored M774 bouncing off the front plate, guess it does not align with your narrative you are spinning.
Ah yes, the reload change that literally no US player was asking for. People wanted functional hull armor on the M1s like it historically should have, instead gaijin just slapped a reload change on it and left. The same thing occurred with the Ariete and the Merkavas, and guess what, nothing has changed for any of them, they all still need armor improvements, the reload buff fixed functionally nothing on them.
Hmmm lets see, with a quick search for the Gepard I can find one from a year ago, one from two years ago, one back when it was release and one 10 months ago. Yeah thats a long time ago my guy, the ItPsV and ZA-35 have Spook playing them, but only about 3 more videos beyond that and those are all 10 or more months ago.
And then we have the XM246, which I can find a total of 8 videos all under a month about it, curious.
I will say, they are playable now. The 5s reload did make them a lot better.
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I would heavily question if the top tier Merkavas are really playable, the Airetes still implode under a weak breeze, the M1s did benefit the most as they were the best off of the 3, but still, they all needed armor tweaks, not reload tweaks, the primary reason why all 3 vehicles suffer was not addressed.
just want to bump the thread and say that XM800T has a belt that is wrong. why has it got german ammo when its an American testbed?
also where is its LRF?
move to 8.7 and take away the APDS so its accurate and with other vehicles of its insane ability
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The Merkava Mk.4’s are actually, dare I say, good. They’re insanely survivable and have some pretty trolly armor, with a good dart to boot. I’ve been playing nothing but the Mk.4M lately and I have been loving it. As for the Arietes, they are still bad, and I think each Ariete could do with a 1 BR step decrease.