I think we should stick to suggestion rules and allow unfinished prototypes. This way we can get more unique and interesting vehicles, but they are still designs serious enough that physical prototyping started in some way.
So by that R2Y2s in game would still be removed (since they are inaccurate designs), but a real R2Y2 with wing mounted Ne-330 engines and only torpedo armament could be added as lower BR fast torpedo bomber.
removes coelian 341 for being “ahistorical/fake”
Proceeds to add 2 fictional tanks (Ostwind 2 and zerstorer 45) in its place
given we have 2 fictional tanks in the german tech tree, we should be able to keep the R2Y2’s
Zerstörer 45 could be argued is at the very least unfinished prototype, with the cannon setup having been made for it. Though the finished design was intended to be more similar to the Wirbelwind, many sources also claim a prototype weapon was mounted to the Flakpanzer IV Möbelwagen chassis for testing, the same we have in game (no photos exist as far as I’m aware)
Ostwind II is a weird one. The one we have in game was added twice, based on questionable sources and in a configuration that was made up by Gaijin and makes little sense in historical context. Even if an Ostwind with a second 37mm cannon had been made, it’s more likely to have mounted the second cannon above the first rather than side by side, since that would require less work on the base turret. No real configuration is known, both are equally speculative.
According to “Gepard - The History of German Anti-Aircraft Tanks (1982)” by Walter J. Spielberger the intended final design of the Ostwind II had coaxially mounted cannons rather than the base design of the FlaK 43. A prototype was also completed, making it at least an unfinished, if not finished design.
Still, there is other cases of decisions by Gaijin that seem inconsistent, such as the denial of the partially completed O-I, or the implementation of the F-16AJ as a fictional what-if semi-ADF variant of the Block 10 loosely based on the real proposal as an “exception”. Gaijin is just inconsistent in their additions, and I wish they would simply use the well made, clear and direct rules made for suggestions on the forum, rather than arbitrary and subjective case-by-case decisions.
Walter J. Spielberger first mentioned in his book that the 3.7 cm was mounted coaxially. If you claim that Walter J. Spielberger is a questionable sources…I don’t know what to say.
Also, on page 109 of his book, there is a production record of the Ostwind 2. Ostwind 2 is not a fake vehicle.
The “Eastwind II” prototype was developed by “Ostbau-Sagan”, its turret remained similar in ap-pearance to that of the “Eastwind I”. Its armament however consisted of twin, co-axially mounted, 3.7 cm, Flak 44 cannon spaced 300 mm apart. Due to the layout of the cannon two loaders were necessa-ry. The upper section of the gun-cradle was made and delivered by Gustloff-Werke, Suhl. The pro-totype being completed by “Ostbau-Sagan” in January, 1945 and then issued to the Armored Re-plenishment and Training Regiment stationed in Ohrdruf/Thuringia. With both the “Destroyer 45” and “Eastwind II” configurations the German Army had at their disposal the most fire intensive, powerful anti-aircraft ordnance to appear on either side during World War II.
Yeah, but according to some text, the R2Y2’s were produced as well.
Concidering the engines were build, this might be true also, yet its still classified as “fake”.
Yeah, my mistake. It’s been a few years since I looked into German vehicles, so chances are I misremembered. Hope I got the Zerstörer 45 part somewhat right at least
Generally what I was confusing here was the FlaK 43 that the Ostwind II was armed with, which mounted the cannons above eachother. I distinctly remember reading about a prototype more likely using the unmodified design, but again I could always just be wrong.
Anyways what you sent here makes this at least an unfinished prototype, so it becomes very irrelevant to the discussion here.
I guess next time I’ll just stick to using the F-16AJ as my example for why Gaijin should shift to using suggestion rules, since at least there I know my sources.
That being said, I still believe the suggestion rules on allowed vehicles should be used for the game instead of case-by-case subjective judgement.
Right now near-complete prototypes like the O-I are being rejected, while an unbuilt and fictionally configured F-16AJ was added as “exception”. This doesn’t feel right, and I believe a clear ruleset needs to be made to define the line between what can and can’t be added, and it needs to be applied to any vehicle equally. I personally really like the unfinished prototype rule already in place for suggestions, and many vehicles that fall under it, so that’s my pick.
Yeah, but according to some text, the R2Y2’s were produced as well.
Concidering the engines were build, this might be true also, yet its still classified as “fake”.
It was not built with the model in the game, and the model currently in the game is a perfect creation and should be removed. It is still unclear what type of aircraft was tested in April 1945.
There is the idea that unfinished R2Y1 hulls were used for conversion to jet powered aircraft, but no direct confirmation.
But with the Ne-330 engine prototyped, an R2Y2 would still count for an unfinished prototype by suggestion rules.
Though a War Thunder suggestion rule abiding R2Y2 would be very niche. It’d be similar to the R2Y2 V1 in the game, except without any cannons, only using torpedo armament. This could be an interesting aircraft for naval, but it’s still very niche and likely hard to balance, so I can see why this wouldn’t be a very high priority for Gaijin.
R2Y2’s also being the same as this image
R2Y2’s (adios)
so the ostwind 2 being on paper = warrent’s its addition + a premium version
but the R2Y2 in most cases being also on paper = must be removed?
isnt this just blatent double standard
The issue is though that the Kai V2 and Kai V3 are almost entirely fictional. The Kai V1 being removed is complete bs especially as it was very much doable with what was known about jet technologies of the time.
In my opinion though, Gaijin removing them is incredibly detrimental in a tree that only has one domestic jet *at Rank V(it can be argued the Kikka is different enough from the Schwalbes that it is its own seperate airframe, and the Ki-200 is too close to the Me-163 to warrent that) outside of the three R2Y2s. If Gaijin is going to remove these, at least give us a J7W2 and remove the Ostwind II or change its model entirely.
Even more, the R2Y2s aren’t hurting anything. They’re peak mid at 8.0 seeinf jets from the Korean war while being the size of a whale and having the turn rate of a warehouse
Excuse me but have you even read what he wrote?
The “Eastwind II” prototype was developed by “Ostbau-Sagan”
The pro-totype being completed by “Ostbau-Sagan” in January, 1945 and then issued to the Armored Re-plenishment and Training Regiment stationed in Ohrdruf/Thuringia.
Excuse me but have you even read what he wrote?
Yes, however consider the following
Which also had the weapon system built and tested on the Möbelwagen chassis, same as the one in game. It’s not even an unfinished prototype, but just a completed vehicle. I’d even argue the final Wirbelwind style turreted variant might count as unfinished prototype.
R2Y2s on the other hand never existed the way they do in game. In the game they have Ne-330 engines, the final engine selected for R2Y2, still we get V2 and V3 designs meant for the Ne-30 that was discarded as soon as the Ne-330 became available. Then all of the R2Y2s have cannons that were not part of the actual R2Y2 design, and carry bombs but no torpedoes that were the only weapon mentioned for it.
I’m all for a historical R2Y2, I fully support unfinished prototype additions that a historical one would be, but it’s not like the ones in the game.
Why do we only want historical vehicles ingame?
I’m dodging aim-9s in my Me-262,
Taking guided missles when in my tiger tank,
Fighting on modern maps with my WWI and WWII tank and dodging gepard SPAA in my prop plane.
But noooo, unfinished planes that have very predictable stats, fill techtree and lineup gaps, is to much to ask…
First about it - one question is about games creating and other things which is only game balance but in-game vehicles and its performances is more historic question (and of course some of them is balance but more things like weapon list)
Please don’t mess our words. I don’t against unfinished planes especially if it was on late stage of creating. For example I really wanna see S1A Denko (For this one even document I have) and Ki-91, or Ho-Ri II prototype with 50% of ready.
But R2Y2 (even first one) in game is fake because of 30mm guns. And tbh planes on so early stages of creating is not really interesting for me, like Ki-201 which was too early at creating. Also J7W2 looks like also wasn’t even producing plane so hard to say it unfinished plane…
Could replace the R2Y2’s we have now to the prototype one as a replacement
Yeah, it this point it doesn’t even matter.
Like what’s the the point of historical vehicles when they don’t fight in historical settings.
If an IS-2 fights both Jagdpanzer 4-5s and Panzerhaubitze 2000s, then you might as well have it fight Panthers with long 88s or Tiger IIs with 105mm guns.
Or when a 3.7 P-51 fights a 1940 Bf 109 with ammo from 1943/44.
That’s not in the game.
interesting