Why Players Play: Playing to Grind, Battle Pass and Time Sensitive Challenges

Game Discussion General Discussion
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Good Time of Day All,

Background

Spoiler

There’s a youtube video that I can’t find but it’s been taking up space in my head for a few months, maybe even a year. Part of it dealt with Grind mechanics present in some video games, in addition to the purpose of Battlepasses and limited time grind events for FOMO content. In a very fotunate turn of events, several of my friends recently picked up War Thunder and are enjoying it. As a result I’m getting some very fresh perpsectives from people who don’t typically play MMOs. One of the most interesting ideas that I noted, is that they all have very finite goals within the game (Mind you these guys have only played for a few months):

  • One person is only interested in Rank II US planes - nothing more
  • One person decided that they’re not interested in progressing in Germany passed BR 5.7, but are having fun exploring other tech trees and they think they’ll go further is the US tech tree because they like CAS.
  • One person has done a bit of research and decided that they want to make a concerted effort for Rank VIII Japanese tanks.
  • No one gives a shit about events or battlepasses, they’re just interested in playing specific vehicles and nothing else.

Another thing that stood out to me having been playing MMO style games in some capacity or another for over 10 years now is the Idea that players organically arriving at a point where they are either comfortable with a game or no longer need to engage with a game. War Thunder by contrast and by virtue of being highly competitive makes it seem to me that vanishingly few players will ever be comfortable with all parts of the game, and that most players will only ever find a comfortable flow zone in very niche vehicles or battle ratings.

The key point in the above mentioned youtube video was the idea that some video games are designed to make you engage with them, long after you stop enjoying the game. This idea applies to short gaming sessions (playing for 5 hours when you stopped having fun after the first hour) and long term, you’ve been playing a game for a few months and years, but the magic is gone but you keep coming back to the game out of habit or to grind events.

When people aren’t complaining about War Thunder as a game, the next most popular complaint seems to be other players: “If it’s not balance, uptiers, or bugs that are ruining my games, it’s the one death leavers, people who don’t cap, people sit up the back and snipe etc.”. It seems to me at least, that on the whole, there is an issue with how/why people are engaging with the game.

Another observation that other people have described but I can’t prove, is that the matchmaker seems to do funny things whenever there is an event running (typically it seems to be worse), with that being said, Battlepass is an ‘event’ that’s been running non stop for as long as I can remember. I don’t know how long the Shit Teams complaints or One Death Leaving complaints have been circulating for, but I have a feeling that Battle Pass and Events are contributing to them more than any other game mechanic. My theory is that ‘not-insignificant’ portion of players online at any time, are only playing to grind and have completely disengaged with the game and are just doing the bare minimum.

Part of the reason I suspect this apathy is present in some ‘not-insignifacant’ portion is that many of the ‘Solution Topics’ seem to be based around trying to incentivise players to engage more or motivate players to do better. I wholeheartedly support anything that will make the game more fun to engage with don’t get me wrong, but I feel like the underlying issue we’re trying to solve with War Thunder, is the fact that for most people it’s no longer a fun game as much as it is a shitty casual job with a bad manager that is ruining your free time by calling you into work on your days off because there’s a new battle pass or event vehicle that needs grinding out.

Apologies for the ramble, I’m churning this out in a lunch break so I don’t have time to structure this any better.

Kind Regards,

Lukav

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Actively avoiding game modes that have events going on is vital to staying sane in this game (thats the one nice thing about the new event system, there is only an event in one mode at a time so you can avoid them), not having anything worth getting in the last few BPs has been nice too, they are just to grindy and bring out the worst in players. It would be nice if BP just progressed through game score like in most other games instead of ridiculous time limited challenges like “kill 500 Scharnhorst’s with rifle caliber MGs” or something of the like.
Take the current BP task “melee mastery” destroy 10 player tanks from less than 50m. Lots of people will spawn in with a fast light tank and try to rush in point blank to try and get a kill, if they die they will leave and try again next game, and with so many doing that more players will not bother respawning as a lager part of their team left already.
Gaijin and to be fair most modern game Devs seem to refuse to consider 1 major factor to encourage player engagement:
Make the game FUN! and let players play the mode they like instead of forcing them into other modes that they don’t enjoy for events/ battle passes.
All this talk about “If we fix the grind players will have nothing to do and quite the game” that Gaijin goes on about is only an issue if players don’t actually enjoy playing the game.

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bring out the worst in players.

I appreciate your reply however I take issue with this specific part.

If by worst in players, you mean they become abusive in chat, or otherwise nasty and anti social fine. Otherwise, if by worst you’re describing how people choose to play, then I have an issue. I personally don’t believe there’s a right or wrong way to play the game. Additionally, I don’t believe that players are obligated to meet a certain standard of skill when playign (in short: you the player are not intitled to skilled teammates)

Gaijin and to be fair most modern game Devs seem to refuse to consider 1 major factor to encourage player engagement:

Player engagement IS the only thing Gaijin considers

Make the game FUN!

Fun is abstract and difficult to define as it changes based on so many variables that the developers can’t control. War Thunder is a multiplayer game, other players are as much the game as the vehicles and the physics. What’s fun today, might be irritating or frustrating tomorrow. One of the major realisations is that only the player can make something fun or not fun, additionally, it’s very difficult to make something fun, it’s easy to make something shitty. Additionally, fun is highly subjective, for some people the Grind or the Challenge is what makes the game fun, which is at extreme odds with players who want a more casual relaxing experience.

I think part of what I’m getting at is that War Thunder can only be enjoyed in intervals, however War Thunder is trying to coerce the player into playing it longer than they want to, or instead of other games.

I feel like the teams and community environment would be far more positive if players played for fun, as opposed to playing to grind. This also means that players would stop playing War Thunder and play something else when they had enough of War Thunder. Personally I don’t think War Thunder has the allure of something like Battlefield 3 where the core gameplay loop is why people played with the small background reward of progression and unlocks. In War Thunder, it seems like the Progression and unlocks are the primary part of the game, and the vehicle combat simulator is seocndary. I think an example of this is that War Thunder only sells items related to progression: Premium TIme, Premium Currency and Premium Vehicles. War Thunder Doesn’t sell DLC, they don’t sell map packs, they don’t sell game modes, they don’t new experiences or different gameplay.

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I was referring to both, but in regards to player behaviors I am not talking about play styles like rushing a point in a light tank to pull CAS or camping, I am talking about TKing to get a base that somebody else is going for or shooting through a friendly plane to get the guy he is trying to kill, ramming somebody out of cover because they want that sniper spot, those sorts of things.

Yes I very much agree and that was part of what I was getting at with fun, making the game enjoyable so people want to play, rather than it being a chore to log on and finish X-task in Y-game mode you don’t like so you can get the BP reward you want.
And while you are correct that what is fun varies for different people, things like having a better balance of CQC/ sniper maps, better balance between CAS/SPAA instead of one just dominating the other depending on the BR, BR decompression Etc would probably help most people enjoy the game more.

This has me a bit concerned TBH, if they can’t find a way to operate that isn’t progression based then they are in trouble as they are already at current in service MBTs and getting close with planes, naval isn’t very popular and once they finish adding battleships they are in trouble as guided missile cruisers/ destroyers will be a nightmare to balance as they carry missiles that can break battleships in half from hundreds of kms.

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I agree and have been saying this for years if I am reading this correctly.

Battlepass and these daily tasks etc contribute to people doing nonsensical actions or detrimental actions.
I dont really understand why people give a shit about them and should just play to have fun etc. Game becomes a lot less stressful.

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Battlepass and these daily tasks etc contribute to people doing nonsensical actions or detrimental actions.

I think you’ve got it backwards slightly. If anything the battle pass daily tasks add novelty are fun in of themselves but they are incompatible with ‘playing to grind’ the core part of the game. However, once the daily task becomes the special task, it can be a tremendous grind if you get a winrate based task or don’t like playing a specific vehicle (i.e get kills in an SPAA).

I dont really understand why people give a shit about them and should just play to have fun etc. Game becomes a lot less stressful.

In some ways I suspect you’ve internalised the grind and aren’t having fun which could explain. You could just as easily ask yourself the same question:

  • Why do you give a shit that other players are doing battle tasks instead of just playing to have fun?

If War Thunder was a singleplayer game or a COOP PVE game, these battle tasks would be a no brainer. You would simply adjust your lineup and change your tactics to complete the object because the predictable AI oponents would be too mucb of a challenge, at worst you would watch a guide video on what lineup to use. Instead, each enemy team has at least a few motivated players who are going to make your game as difficult as possible. I think this partly why your attitude for example persists in the forums.

People in this game talk about their teammates like they are bad cooworkers who are making their day job harder.

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This has me a bit concerned TBH, if they can’t find a way to operate that isn’t progression based then they are in trouble as they are already at current in service MBTs.

I don’t think adding new vehicles will ever be a problem. The suggestions forum is overflowing with potential vehicles. I think people will give up on the grind before they run out of vehicles to add.

P.P.S

Based on what I’m seeing, the priorities for War Thunder aside from making it a great game mechanically is to maximise their concurrent player base.

My reading of the decision making is that they want players to play as often as possible for as long as possible, and that all of the economy and progression decisions are carefully attuned to that purpose. I can’t fault them for it either, they made the product fair an square and it’s in their best interests to monetize their creation as effectively as possible.

making the game enjoyable so people want to play, rather than it being a chore to log on and finish X-task in Y-game mode you don’t like so you can get the BP reward you want.

P.S

A few days ago someone compared the War Thunder Battlepass with the Helldivers II battlepass/progression system. This conversation made me think that in reality, there’s no reason why every battle pass can’t exist all at once, albeit the consideration is that you can only progress through one at a time. If they can still leave the 2000GE cost of unlocking the whole thing but just have however many tabs in the warbond shop to select which battlepass you are unlocking daily’s for.

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Been playing since 2013, I dont grind.
I play to have fun, of which I usually do.
My issue lies with the playerbase and that the tasks etc contribute to people doing stupid things.

why did we lose the match?

“oh i have a daily or special task that requires me to watch my team mates die while doing a handstand and eating a fish pie upside down”

Matches are thrown or people doing stupid shit because that is what the task requires.

Lets say the task is to get a god mode award…
Guy takes a 2.3 tank into a 11.7 match - only that 1 vehicle - nothing else.
Goes in - dies immediately - leaves…
Thankyou for your contribution to my match and aiding us in getting screwed…

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So here me out, you say that: “You play to have fun”. To me this means, you load into a match, you pick the tanks that you want to play, you drive around, you shoot stuff, you get killed, you respawn, eventually the match ends and you can be satisfied with th experience win or lose.

Emphasis on enjoy the match regardless of the outcome. I can understand wanting to win and playing to win. If I play a match and we get absolutely kerb stomped but I got 12 kills in an M24 for 1 death in a 5.7 match because my friend switched lineups without realising and we played the match anyway. I’m happy, I’m a bit excited even. Generally speaking as long as the whole team doesn’t get wiped in the first 5 minutes I’m having a good time.

Its easy to say you’re playing for fun, but it sounds like you don’t have when you lose, and unless you’re incredibly skilled or lucky, losing is what happens at least half the tims often more than half the time. So if you’re not having fun, because you lose half the time then you aren’t playimg for fun. It sounds like the guys trying to get gode modes are having fun

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Everything said here is on point. Gaijin doesn’t know how to make the game better and they don’t want to break what’s working, so all we get are events which don’t benefit the grind and battlepasses which I’ve been ignoring for years, it just works as a random reward for me every now and then.

Some things I know are bad atm and can be greatly improved are:

  • Event and achievement UI, even that skins UI is bad, why can’t you filter to see skins you have, but can filter to see skins you don’t have for vehicles you have
  • Base bombing and bombing in general, bombers role in WT is minimal and the average team would benefit much more from having 1 more fighter than 2 more bombers
  • Having to grind same modules on different variations of same aircraft (just why do I have to research same missile 10 times)
  • Naval is bad and it keeps getting worse. Imagine if tanks were spawned 100m away from each other in a circle. Whoever thought of it hates naval
  • We have self propelled artillery that works as tank destroyers but not as artillery

Gaijin just takes no risks at improving the game. They are fine with the stale experience dedicated to the grind. I’d really like to see at least one more game mode added, something similar to the enduring confrontation but less time consuming/on a smaller scale.

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Everything said here is on point. Gaijin doesn’t know how to make the game better and they don’t want to break what’s working, so all we get are events which don’t benefit the grind and battlepasses which I’ve been ignoring for years,

I’d just like to clarify the point of making this topic.

I don’t think war thunder is a bad game. I think battle passes and fomo events cause some players to treat the game like a part time job. As a result players burn themselves out and then become miserable amd complain about everything because at this point everything is making them miserable.

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Actually, there was the pacific war single player missions DLC, I have it but it’s just obsolete. It’s a good observation that the game is grind first, gaming second. And to me grind can be “fun”, in limited doses.

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I’ve been legit debating just taking a big 2 week break form warthunder when the air event came about. I didn’t, because I was in the mood for some prop plane ASB flying and I was learning new planes and it’s fun. But it wasn’t. I noticed a pretty significant uptick in people joining a lobby as a squad (or at least in a group, likely in VC), losing one dogfight and ditching to go for another lobby where the enemy cannot kill them reliably. I also noticed a big uptick in people camping airfields to kill people taking off just outside of AAA range but well before you’re at a speed or altitude to put up a fair fight. In other words, bad sportsmanship to increase score/hour rather than fun/hour. Oh, and people using bombers as gunboats (which in SB is quite effective thanks to third person view point and click aiming, especially if people are distracted in a dogfight).

I feel I’ve lost sanity trying to have fun.

This is a lobby where I found myself on the “winning” side:

Spoiler

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I looked at the leaderboard, saw it turned into a 11 (or 10 ignoring the bomber) vs 7 (and looking at leaderboard - at least 2 in a bomber so 10 vs 5) and left myself because it’d be awfully boring and unfair.

I found this experience very regular over the past 2 weeks either in my “favour” (if we consider flying around in an air-superiority aircraft without planes to fight favour), or with me realizing wherever I went I’d run into 5 mustangs/bf109s and have no backup and leave as well.

I swear it wasn’t this bad outside the event period.
And I can understand it. Even with sim multipliers, you need 30000 score over 2 days. 1 kill is worth 450 score (+150 crit). A group-capture of a point is worth 200 (solo 600).
Even with the 2.3x multiplier, that means 30000 score requires (30000 = 450 * x * 0.9 * 2.3; x = 32 kills. Even CCs I watch and know to be good players only ever seem to get around 11-15 kills in a 70-90 minute game at prop brackets normally due to travel times, rearm times, finding people to shoot. And this assumes you’re not shooting someone flying a pyörrmirski at a 5.0-6.0 bracket because they rightfully feel it’s undertiered at 4.0 and want to play fair, but doing so makes you only get ~50% of the score for killing them)

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Playing a video game with a somehow competitive design is one thing - but the way players enjoy playing the game is another and way more individual topic.

So the perception of fun is not necessarily tied to winning or losing - but imho just beta-males have fun losing matches most of the time.

  • If you consider that WRs are (at least in my mode Air RB) mainly the result of the MM (sometimes just flawed map design) and gaijin tries with all means to render individual player skill useless - even Hartmann got shot down fighting 8 P-51s above Romania - winning a match with individual performance got way harder with the introduction of 16 vs 16 and this frequent “bad” weather which kills your situational awareness.

  • Therefore long-term players can try to either squad up with friends and/or fly just meta planes in order to beat the “system” gaijin has created.

  • Or (like in my case) try to make non-meta planes (410, P-47, F6F-5) work and just accept that they might lose more matches - but increase the “fun” if they manage to beat the odds in inferior aircraft, have maybe a higher “relative” game impact and might win as last survivor.

  • From my pov WRs (at prop BRs) are mainly based on played nation. So if you fly the JP B7A2 (no matter of TT or Premium) you end up with a WR of ~ 70% - no matter what you do. That’s why i use the 10 victory wager exclusively in them as they pay out 250k SL in 9 out of 10 attempts.

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I started playing War Thunder because it was (emphasis on WAS) the most realistic tank shooter.

Reasons why I am hating on the game :

  1. Map & Map Design : As of late all maps are forced into a 3 to 5 lane fight with almost all “ingenuity” spots being covered in red zones or being removed.
  2. Constants CQC/CQB : There is no variation in play style. First click, armor or patiently waiting on a corner for someone to pass has become the norm. This and point 1 greatly ignores nation doctrine and “Best vehicle use”.
  3. Maps are being updated and more issues are being introduced - We have gone from floating buildings in Afghan Alt History to now having floating rocks in Sinai (Rock clusters off the train track mid map). Almost feels as if there is no quality control in the releases.
  4. Thumb-suck game balancing : WW2 tech should not fight Cold War Tech, Cold War tech should not fight Modern Tech - NO, I AM NOT SAYING THAT VEHICLES SHOULD BE BRACKETED BY YEAR OF RELEASE.
  5. Immersion - My WW2 vehicles running past modern map objects
  6. Some kid flaming team chat for the team being noob while the person that is doing said flaming only has 1 vehicle in their line-up at BR, ran to cap solo in a head-on and left after 2 deaths while only having maybe an assist.

My Ideal game :

  1. Less red zones and give us back some freedom in movement and player ingenuity
  2. Balance the CQC with the long range maps - not everything has to be a brawl ALL the time
  3. Limit the min-max BR that a player can set in a line-up for Realistic Battles - same as it is in Sim
  4. Quality control the maps to avoid floating terrain
  5. In crease spawn distance for CAS in ground battles - allowing pilots to position themselves but also allow SPAA & AA to counter position.
  6. Add the Death Timer that is in Sim Ground to Realistic Ground on spawn. (This will not prevent spawn exit camping but will prevent on-spawn camping) - Note : This is for other players - I do not care about spawn camping.
  7. Rework keen vision to match BR and vehicle instead of enemy vehicles vanishing in LOS at 600m while I am in a MBT with a god-like zoom.
  8. We have BE AC now, utilise it to manage chat and excessive team damage.

Enjoy for the lols

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I agree, War thunder is one of the best, if not the best game in its field, but it’s gameplay loop is quite stale. Smaller scale battles were introduced to top tier Air but they happen so rarely that you forget to even check and then wonder mid battle where is everyone.

There is plenty of room for improvement but I believe Gaijin is afraid of change.

Also greetings fellow FM3 enjoyer o7