Of course this garbage take comes from “heavy tanker 1945”. Ok bro.
Every vehicle should be at least competitive enough to be worth playing. If you believe light vehicles are useless, are you saying they need to be buffed? Just be honest and say you don’t want balance.
Also the guy who constantly complains about APHE post pen, suddenly wants hull break. Really makes you think. Can’t possibly imagine why the double standard.
So does FV4005. It cannot oneshot KT from front into turret but it onetaps it into track… Gaijin logic is incredible
Simple solution would be hull break apply to only certain areas of the vehicle.
Yeah hitting a tire and triggering hullbreak is dumb… but we have brains and can use logical reasoning to create a solution for that which is quite simple instead of verbally beating each other pedantically.
From what i know, it is currently only following vehicle with HESH, that have enough HE filler to overpressure vehicles such at the Tiger II through the tracks:
155mm T152 on the T58,
165mm M123 on the M728 CEV,
165mm L33A1 on the Centurion Mk.5 AVRE
183mm Shell L1 on the FV4005
All of them have enough HE filler to do it, it is just that the T58 have a 2,6 second reload, so that if it misses, it can do a quick follow up shot, where the other have at least 20 second.
For me it nearly feels like there is some kind of threshold in regards to the TNTe on the HESH, in regards to it being able to over pressure at all through the track or not, a bit like there is also a threashold for overpressure for APHE.
If we compare the T152 on the T58 (16,85kg TNTe, 63,8mm HE pen) vs the L31A7 on a Chieftain Mk 3 (6,53kg TNTe, 52,6mm HE pen). Then the T152 (the smallest of the 4 above listed shells) is able to overpressure heavy tanks such as an Tiger II with 80mm side armor through the tracks, while the L31A7 is not able to overpressure a light tank such as a Ka-Mi with 10mm side armor through the tracks.
What I think is happening, is that the 4 big HESH shells have enough TNTe to have enough HE pen to penetrate the tracks and front drive sprocket/idler, so it penetrates both of those and overpressures the tank from the tracks, and then it “thinks” it is have penetrated the tank, and is able to over pressure the crew.
Meanwhile, the smaller HESH rounds, are not able to penetrate the track and front drive sprocket/idler with HE pen, and then it fails to be able to fulfill the conditions for HESH to be able to overpressure (the conditions being that HE pen of the HESH have to higher than the piece of armor it directly hits).
I would rather hull break be relegated to history as a terrible mechanic that realistically served to punish light armor for existing (as it did). Unless the mechanic is added to all vehicles it will inherently be a nerf to one type.
And if re-adding hull break is even considered, the point where a vehicle is structurally destroyed is all but impossible to objectively define universally.
What makes the vehicle a pile of scrap vs a damaged vehicle? Do you need to impart sufficient energy to deform part of the structure beyond the elastic limit? Do you need to overcome the strength of the welds and connections holding the metal together? Is it not enough just to put an enormous dent in the armor that a subsequent hit will easily overcome it? What about occasions where energy is sufficient to say, slam the turret ring into the hull to the point where it can no longer rotate? When does “repairable damage” turn into “complete destruction”?
Can’t define these things for every unique ground vehicle family in the game easily.
I disagree with you that it would be impossible to objectively design since there were real life tests with photos where some reasonable conclusions could be made.
Seems less like a rational discussion and more of a personal/emotional abject hate towards a mechanic - which therefore shuts off all possibility of higher reasoning on how to make it functional.
Have a great day.
Shooting the tracks basically sends some of the HE frags through the floor of the tank or the bottom of the sponson over the tracks, both of which tend to have around 5-10 mm of armour which is easily penned and thus triggers Ovp.
Which are irrelevant. In game, if someone takes out your turret ring, you just repair it. In reality, no turret ring means mission aborted even if everyone inside is ok. So a photo where a hit dislodged the turret from the ring won’t tell you whether in WT it should qualify as “target destroyed”.
HESH needs a serious buff for game balance reasons, but given how arcadey WT damage is, there’s no need to look at reality for this. Simple competitive parity will suffice.
Your whole theory around “HE frag” doesn’t make any sense.
It nearly feels like you are contradicting yourself. Either HESH have a small amount “HE frag”, so there is a large chance that none of the “HE frag” will pen a armour plate, and the regular HE is supposed to have a large amount of “HE frag” so it should have a even better chance to kill through the tracks, because it has more “HE frag” that can pen the armour plates.
However it is nearly the opposite, with the big HESH rounds can nearly with 100% reliability, kill heavily armoured tanks, anywhere in the tracks, while regular HE can at best take the tracks off.
Example:
The 203mm M106 on the M55 vs the 155mm T152 pm the T58. The M106 has 23,06kg TNTe while the T152 has 16,85kg TNTe, the regular HE has ~37% more HE filler. The HESH can kill a Tiger II by shooting the very front of the tracks, while the regular HE only takes the track off.
You have yet to present any evidence of your “HE frag” theory. I am open to change my mind, if you presents any evidence that shows that it works like that, and it is able to be reliably repeated. However all you have done so far, is say you think it works with the ““HE frag” mechanic”.
I believe HESH works very well on tracks shots because of the delay on the fuze (HESH seems to be able to detonate inside the tracks which effectively “disables” the tracks’ armour model like when you pen a 30 mm non-volumetric plate on the “thin” edge so the entire length/width counts as 30 mm) which allows the HE frag to actually travel inside the tracks unobstructed before hitting the bottom of the sponson. This is also my guess as to why Merkava’s HETF used to be able to kill tanks from track shots.
HESH is still very very weird and unintuitive however. an M41A1 can literally survive the overpressure of a 165 mm HESH from a direct hit to the turret sides for no reason even though in theory the HE frag should easily go through it since it’s only like 40 mm or so (this shot only killed the gunner and commander and somehow missed the loader)
Tbf I have no idea how they modeled HESH. HEAT is actually closer to HE in terms of overpressure functions (albeit with reduced HE frag from the looks of it), but HESH is weirdly different.
The “HE frag” mechanic is just my theory from my observations (from before they added the new ammo statcard since all shell with explosive actually has HE frag pen that wasn’t shown since the old ammo statcard only shows the max pen) and so far it works in explaining why KTH 105’s old APHE (which used to do overpressure) can kill overpressure an IS-3 from the gunner sight (basically penning the mantlet cover, detonating on the turret face, and sending the HE frag through the tiny gunner sight slit, and hitting the internals which checks the overpressure).
There are also other peculiar HESH case though, like overpressuring KTH from shooting the turret front sides (which are 80 mm + some 20-30 mm tracks addon) high above the hull roof while not overpressuring it when hitting that very same plate closer to the hull roof. I still have no idea how this one works but it’s weirdly somewhat more consistent compared to just hitting the turret face.
People will somehow still find a reason to disagree with this statement lol
youre right.
it wasnt violent enough
For high end HE sure, but the problem was you could hit something with a tiny round and it would still go to the shadow realm.
Depends on when you are talking about. Hull break initially was any component of the tank, but as time went on they removed drive and road wheels, machine guns, optics, and a lot of the other small parts of a tank, leaving only the major components. But this was also an era where every explosive round was so nerfed that the only way to kill light vehicles reliably was hull break. 120mm+ HE or HESH rounds couldn’t reliably kill hellcats with explosive spalling.
The problem is that overpressure relies on this magical ‘blast wave’ that doesn’t exist irl. Hitting a turrent roof isn’t going to kill a gunner via pressure wave. Hitting a gunner optic isn’t going to detonate a tank. Putting a <1kg heat round into an engine from the side isn’t going to kill an entire crew. I have having an arty shell hit the ground 30m away from an open topped tank isn’t going to kill it. I have videos of all of those. As bad as hull break was, the core of the idea is far more sound than overpressure ever will be.
And we still don’t even have accurate modeling for overpressure. Most tanks have engine firewalls that should stop any sort of pressure wave, almost none are modeled in game except ifvs… for some reason? Check the bmp and marder vs T34 or Centurion.
Hull break was during a time when overpressure wasn’t even a thing and was the first attempt at making HE more functional (genuinely there was no reason to carry HE aside from the funny under tank shot with big HE hence the classic full APHE-only loadout).
While yes IRL most of the pressure wave won’t overpressure the entire crew compartment and only the initial breach area, it is a lot more functional than ye olde hullbreak which is just comically annoying especially with how hullbreak wasn’t exclusive to explosives allowing for APDS to hullbreak things. They could improve things by finding the middle ground for hullbreak and overpressure, but I guess it has quite a lot of parameters to work right.
A lot of older models simply has the engine firewall invisible in xray (since xray armour was a rather recent addition), they can only really be seen through clipping. Things like Maus or T95 are such example.
If they fix HESH, then shock horror, the T58 will have to go up to 9.0 cause that’d be a massive buff. Lol.
Tbh it would still do just fine. The only real drawback is just the armour will start losing its meaning.
Ok, after 2 weeks of CEV gaming I can definitely say… I have no idea how the hell HESH works really…
The HE frag theory is somewhat applicable, but the way it overpressures through tracks or other specific odd spots is very difficult to explain.
!! Hesh rework incoming !! try devserveur the hesh finnaly got overpressure correcly but when we don’t overpressure the damage always weak i think. but wtf hesh are very very very very better on the devserveur
3 years since this thread start, ~5 since hesh was actually usable. At this rate, we might get actually good rounds by the time this game dies.
