Yeah…that tells me everything i need to know about you. Probably some kid that is going throug the “actually the nazis were good guys” phase…well lets hope that it is only a phase
1 Like
you should leave politics out of this game tbh. BeNeLux has had a big chunk of French influence and it’s also a good support to France, which desperately needs it at some BRs. Germany can’t have everything
PRUSSIA I MEANT PRUSSIA!
My Bad!
Prussia and Elsass are German heritage and History, they belong within our borders.
1 Like
When Czech king Charles IV. was alive. Czech kingdom own part of German territory, so German TT should go into the Czechoslovakian TT
1 Like
cope harded kiddo
Nein du
womp womp
muh scheissen obergefreiter ist eine flugzeugggg neeeein
“muh shit corporal is an airplane nooo”
?
Why should the Dutch not be added to Germany?
Firstly some historical defence-pact context:
Long argument and context:
Some people have brought the argument forward about the 3 armoured divisions of the NL that merged with their comparable German brigades in order to form 3 force-ready divisions under the NATO readiness pact (Source1, Source2). This made sure that the severely degraded/budget-gutted German(Rapid Forces, 1 Armoured div. and 10 armoured div) and Dutch(11 airmobile, 43 mechanised, 13th light) divisions were able to keep their expertise and readiness (Source3, source4, source5).
This is only recent history, as these merges took place on the 1990s under the NATO-umbrella.
It is thus not the Dutch military that is merged, only the three aforementioned divisions, and even then the Dutch government still has sovereign power over where to use these Dutch troops/Material.
The Dutch air-force however has very close ties to the Belgian one and has implemented may exercises together since the 1950s under the BeNeLux Defence pact. These defence pacts for the Air-Forces have been officialised in the 1980s and Presently make up the BENELUX-QRA(Quick Reaction Alert) pact (source6).
And even stronger tie to Belgium can be found in the BeNeSam pact (also known as Admirality BeNeLux ABNL) for the Belgian and the Dutch navies, which started in 1948 . These navies train and teach their sailors/cadets together, wear the same uniforms, share upkeep for different types of vessels, procure vessels together, logistics, etc. Political independence for where these ships will be sent out is also still politically independent between the two nations, but you can be sure that wherever a dutch ship is, a Belgian one will be close-by (source7, source8).
For the ground forces of The Netherlands and Belgium it is a bit more complicated: The dutch and Belgian artillery used to have cooperation agreements, but these are now delegated between Dutch independent operations and the Franco-Belgian cooperation called CaMo. The BioChemical, radiological and other defense units of these types are also in cooperation with each other between Belgium an the Netherlands.
All in all the BeNeLux has extremely close ties in form of defence, even having a new official political structure, based upon the 1985 defence agreements, officialised in 2012, aka the BENELUX Defence Cooperation (Source9, Source8).
Therefore it can be said that politically and defence speaking the BeNeLux nations have extremely close ties to each other, many times more comprehensive than the German-Dutch one.
Secondly, the Dutch and Germans fought against each other in the Second World war, with many big offences taking place in the country. Many iconic dutch Planes and armoured fighting vehicles destroyed German ones. Planes like the Fokker D.XXI and G.I immediately come to mind. It would be nonsensical for the numerous unique dutch planes from koolhoven (which designed planes for France and the Netherlands) and fokker (for the Netherlands and its colonies) to be represented in the nation that these companies were designing against. Koolhoven also has a nominal link to France with the Koolhoven 58, designed for the French Air Force.
Any 1930s-1940s planes from the Netherlands definitely should never go in the German Tech Tree.
Thematically it makes more sense to place the Netherlands as BeNeLux in the french tech tree than in the German one as just a Dutch subtree, however the BeNeLux should have been an independent tech tree anyway.
Also in-game there is no room for a Dutch sub tree in Germany, therefore any Dutch additions would only be recent vehicles, disregarding the whole unique airplane and shipbuilding industry of the Netherlands. Meanwhile the french tech tree does have room and lacks a lot of planes for certain BR’s, especially compared to Germany, which has an enormous variety of planes to choose from.
Oh, and gaijin has confirmed multiple times that the Dutch won’t go to Germany.
A plane for German top tier is in the works.
2 Likes
You are too biased for the discussion as apparent by your Username.
Read my argument first. ‘Richthofen’
Okay, fair enough.
almost all of these new BRs have no ground lineup to support it. Someone didn’t consider that.
B-b…b ut they said they considered it!
However this is not purely a data driven process, we often consider additional factors such as the volume of players using a certain vehicle, its lineup, new features that may be altering performance in different ways etc
No idea what makes them even say that when we know it’s not even remotely true, none of them… never.
What’s the point of looking at the historical situation and not the recent situation when the vast majority of vehicles will be the recent ones… if we look at the Dutch they weren’t that relevant in WW2.
The Fokkers and the factories were captured by the Germans… so why should they definitely never go to Germany them when captured vehicles are a thing in the game? What claim does France have on them?
And for ground forces… they’ll add the Pantrado?
And the Germans captured those as well anyways.
Germany has American and Russian stuff… so saying they shouldn’t get it because they fought against it each other seems questionable.
1 Like
Captured vehicles are something else. They can work in a tech tree, but have only been sporadically added in war thunder lately. Most captured stuff was added in the early days of war thunder (2013-2015). Gaijin has also said they wanted to limit these vehicles and use subtrees or indigenous vehicles instead.
I was talking about Dutch ‘flagged’/skinned vehicles. A Dutch-flagged plane in game should be able to shoot down a German one. That’s kind of hard if you’re in the same tech tree.
And France isn’t getting captured ones, but a whole sub tree. As a bonus they have also been allies at least for the whole duration this game spans (1912-2025/27).
1 Like
The main thing it’s going to do is add modern vehicles to the French tree, which just means Leopard 2s and F-16s, things Germany could have easily used because, and I can’t say this enough, they got a freaking Phantom at top tier, the impact of a Fokker plane doesn’t really compare.
Could also result in the PzH 2000 because we really need to make sure Germany gets nothing of value.
1 Like
Well your point makes a lot of sense, as they do fought against each other during the WWII. But in WT there are existing examples, like mainland China and Taiwan, they have been remaining in hostile since like late 1940s and tension between them lasts to this day, and a Chinese attack on the island is like inevitable (my view). That doesn’t stop gaijin from including taiwan into the chinese tt (and yeah, some Taiwanese must be furious about it but gaijin did it anyway).
Italy and Hungary is another example, they were enemies during WWI (so what will the italian naval tt be like? making austro-hungarian navy within that tt will also cause quite a bit trouble, especially when there’s ton to add concerning this) and for a short time in WWII, were belonged to NATO/WTO for the entire cold war, but they did it anyway and it just seemed gaijin don’t care about these stuff.
Besides, personally i don’t expect much of a ‘fight between historical rival’ happen in WT since nations untied that took place like years ago, and from all BR countries just got into match randomly. In WWII BRs its easy to find Chinese/America teaming with Japan, Russia teaming with German, so that’s not a very solid point FOR ME. (not saying that’s not a good point)
At the end i think let’s just agree to disagree, or make gaijin consider something else (daydreaming time: gaijin adds a new benelux tt that’s not bind to any nation, but french&german players may get some advantage in grinding. just saying)