how can you have balance?
They have diff characteristics.
That is why we research diff vehicles, to cater to diff situations and capabilities.
whats the point of having 2 diff vicks if they perform exactly the same?
May aswell copy and paste.
Why use a panzer 4 J when you could just use a panzer 3 and expect same results.
Why use a sherman over a panzer when they perform identical?
At that point, who cares what vehicle you use.
Vehicles have diff capabilities, that is a good thing.
You’re saying different vehicles cannot be balanced? We can have different strengths and weaknesses.
and they do brother.
I am sorry the vehicle you are using at that given moment are not the best.
My spitfire doest go as fast as do335, it doesnt get airspawn, it doesnt dive as well, it doesnt have as much ammo, it doesnt have as many guns, it doesnt have such high calibre guns, its not as durable.
Do i find this unfair? - no - those are the vehicles, change them then they are not the same vehicles anymore.
Do i have options? absolutely.
Okay, you’re clearly not looking to have a conversation, you’re just being a nuisance who refuses to acknowledge any points being made just so you can repeat your earlier arguments, enjoy your day.
not at all.
I mean hell, give me the best vehicle everytime at any br at everyone elses expense, go for it.
I just dont think it is beneficial to the masses, just for you at that particular time until you use something else then your opinion changes.
Look at the game from a holistic perspective rather than what is soley good for you at that given time, and you will see what i mean.
I guarantee you that we give the marder what you want, then when you fight against the marder in a contemprary vehicle, then boom, you will be complaining the marder has what you dont.
I just think your not seeing the bigger/long term picture.
Many of such carry many more of said MILAN.
But since you’ve taken this path, let’s compare the Marder 1A3 (8.0) to the Bradley (8.3, but hey close enough):
4x MILANs vs 12 TOWs
single launcher vs twin launcher
unstabilized 20mm vs 2-plane stabbed 25mm
LRF vs no LRF
cannon/launcher depression
-30/-5deg vs -9/-19deg
mobility:
~18hp/t vs ~23hp/t
76/-76kph vs 66/-14kph
Now, I fully understand that the Bradley is at a higher BR - just one .3br step. However, this is a pretty overwhelming advantage for the Bradley.
How about other MILAN carriers? Well, there’s only the Ratel 20 and Warrior IFV.
The Ratel is pretty much a discount Marder A1… sitting at 6.7. Sure, it doesn’t have the smaller size, insane depression, tracks, unmanned (but not invulnerable!) turret, but it does have 7 MILANs, and again 6.7.
The Warrior has a much better cannon, as it is actually able to hurt things from the side at most ranges and gets a lower pen SAPHE shell with about as much penetration as the regular Marder HVAP.
It’s faster than the Marder and its composite armor is actually pretty good against chemical rounds, even bigger ATGMs will often be stopped by it.
It not only carries twice as many MILANs, but gets the upgrade to MILAN 2s - higher launch speed and with more penetration. Like the Bradley, its 8.3.
A single BR step up for much greater firepower in both gun and ATGM, better mobility, and even protection seems a little excessive. The Marders just aren’t that good after the BR raise, 20mm APDS would have to be buffed to its real penetration to make it plausibly well-placed BR wise, and even then the real betraying factor is simply that it doesn’t carry enough ATGMs.
Makes for okay SPAA in a pinch but so does any autocannon tank with decent elevation.
Ok, i can agree with that.
Noticeable differences.
But is this not the entire premise of the game?
If your using the marder as your primary vehicle, you messed up.
The marder is more than capable of messing up vehicles of similar design/capabilities.
It has advantages that others do not - much like others have advantages that the marder does not.
Variety is the spice of life and the reason we play this game.
It’s not gamebreaking and it is what gives vehicles the characteristics they have that make them what they are.
Is it the best? NO. should it be? NO. Can it compete well? YES.
Not every vehicle has to be competitive against the best of its BR, if so - there would be no best of the BR and no reason to experiment and play other vehicles other than aesthetics.
No game should be focused around making everything in every single players benefit, if even possible.
Take joy in variation, dont like it? dont play it, hell, i have on a few vehicles.
Make it work, you know you can, its just not as easy as other vehicles, is that such a bad thing?
That’s the entire issue here - it can no longer compete well. If it can’t compete well, it should be moved down unless there’s a very good reason not to, that’s not really a factor here.
but it can mate.
It can compete against tanks well with milan when positioned correctly.
It can CERTAINLY compete well against vehicles of similar characteristics - light vehicles and such.
I can reflect on many instances being killed by a marder.
The fact that it is not the best at its br is not a cause for concern, nor should be for any vehicle.
I’ve been killed by many a Marder and killed many in return. I think its a perfectly fine vehicle where it is currently and it doesn’t need any changing outside of maybe an extra missile reload. Light tanks absolutely should abide by the rule of “scoot n shoot” or “hide n seek” which is where the turret/missile profile comes into play. Its really only going to be a good scoot n shoot vs stuff like BTRs and BMPs.
Yeah, a k/d of 0.5 is fantastic, clearly a great vehicle.
This isn’t really a light tank though. That’d be a Wiesel or Fox. IFVs are expected to be pretty competent at shooting stuff, especially ones with ATGMs.
The Marder isn’t faster or sneakier than other IFVs but is substantially worse at getting stuff done.
Both are fine at their current BRs. They were raised when rank 4 was decompressed.
They were raised when everything else was raised so nothing changed.
The “stuff” they are designed to shoot at is not an MBT. They fill an infantry support role, which they cannot do in Warthunder. Yes, it does have a missile, but that doesn’t make it a tank destroyer or guided missile carrier. It’s primary purpose is to safely ferry soldiers around and provide direct fire support, not to directly face tanks of any kind. In a game where the Marder MUST face tanks in a mostly direct role, of course it isn’t going to do well because it wasn’t designed to. Regardless of where you put it in the BRs, it will never do much better than it is unless it faces ancient technology in comparison. Unlike the Ratel 20, the Marders have good overall mobility, enough armor to withstand HMGs, and good gun handling characteristics. It can already see late WW2 tanks at 7.7 and if it was even at 7.0 it would still be a glass cannon, but would see greater amounts of APHE and vehicles that it still couldn’t handle with the main cannon.
Don’t get me wrong, I think balance is the key factor in this game, but there should be a bit of a limit to separate these large technological gaps. I know decompression is needed, but at some point it must be realized that not all vehicles can be 2.0 K/D vehicles and still have things make sense. The Ratel 20 can face T-34s with an ATGM. IFV or not, that is a bit extreme.
Its a paper armour vehicle punished by the BR its put into. you’re also punished dramatically by always having german teams. But its still very strong if you play it from the flanks of a battle, don’t draw fire to you but assist in taking out targets firing at your teammates. the marders MILAN missiles are more than usable past 8.0 if you play them right, learnt that through suffering the warrior afv in the British tree. Play the vehicle in the way people play Fox or R3 T106, from the sides and the narrow alleys, not the open frontline
also WTAF is your username…
The good thing is they also fed vodkas to heli’s ATGM, that has somewhat improved the quality of life for ground units though
Yea, I’m not the biggest fan of the early SACLOS helicopter missiles, quite frustrating to get used to so far. Getting much better at countering them though, it can be really fun for me when I go hunting with my M247.
A role which doesn’t exist, therefore it has to face tanks directly. It can’t be sneaky either because it is large in every dimension.
Did very well before when it wasn’t so close to much better IFVs and MILANs were more reliable. That’s the big change.
Marder would be better if it had Milan 2 and more of them. The Milan nerfs hurt the Marder hard due to their already poor effectiveness and limited number.