We need to talk about scouting

[FlyingDoctor]

Fact is, the modification has nothing to do with scouting, and everything to do with the sighting mechanic.

The person you are trying to white-knight for, has made out that I have said things I haven’t multiple times, and you are trying to minimalize it, and make out that I’m the issue…

But as it was already dead before you needed to make your stance…

@LukavMineav

Is there any chance we can go back to discussing the scouting function as opposed to Doctor and Marco having an argument about semantics?

It’s not about semantics, and I don’t see why I should hold my peace when people are directly misquoting, and making out I said things I didn’t at all, just so they can make an argument because they can’t fight thier own battles.

After all, where’s the discussion, if you’re making up everything that the other has stated…

@LukavMineav

Are you alright man? you seem unnecessarily confrontational.

I’m perfectly fine to make my own statements, and have my own discussions, I need not for your concern.

[LukavMineav]

I wasn’t aware that I was white knighting for anyone, but alright.

I’m perfectly fine to make my own statements, and have my own discussions, I need not for your concern.

I don’t doubt your ability to frame everything as a hill to die on lol, I was just asking how you are man that’s all.

[FlyingDoctor]

You’re whiteknighting Marco… As I said, the issue was done and dusted, but you decided to tell us to get back on track…

The module has nothing to do with scouting, and everything to do with sighting and the keen vision side of things.

[LukavMineav]

I disagree, about the white knighting and nothing you can do or say will convince me otherwise.

[Internationalism]

I agree. But how about still being able to track through by simply estimating the enemy’s position? It can be a bit inaccurate, but still be able to, since we also can just estimate about where the enemy is. The farther and more blocked the enemy is, the more inaccurate the estimation, just like how arty spreads more the farther you call it.

[LukavMineav]

That sounds reasonable, when I think about the issue I tend to let the my perceived limitations of the game engine interfere with creative ideas. Do you think the game engine would consistent enough at determining how much cover is actually between you and the tank you’re spotting? I see that as a limitation that might hold your idea up.

[Internationalism]

Yeah…I actually didn’t know that scouting was this OP, since Germany doesn’t have that many WW2 Light tanks at 5.0-6.0. I kind of forgot about scouting for a few months now. That explains how some T-34 magically sniped me 1KM away in the opens.

[LukavMineav]

I think scouting is a powerful tool, but I don’t know that it’s over-powered. There are definitely limitations to it’s use and the player in question has to have a very good understanding of the process in order to consistently get results. Scouting is really only as good as your team, for instance it doesn’t matter how good a scout you are if your team is surrounded or not in a position to destroy or manage the vehicles you spot.

[MaddMutt1]

I’m talking about the improved Optics - BUT - also them not working. I just played the GB team and had the SARC 2/6 pdr vehicle. Improved Optics allowed me to scout (by highlighting the Binoculars (V) in menu on my monitor) when I see the enemy. When I upgraded to the Concept 3 (it’s the next follow on vehicle) the Binoculars (V) does not highlight NOR tells me I’ve scouted the enemy. I’ve looked right at the enemy and hit the V button and nothing happens, when the mission is over I also have no points listed for scouting :-( ← Is this only for level II Vehicles as the same thing happens under the USA with the m24.
Thank You

[LukavMineav]

My purely anecdotal experience without proper evidence to support it is as follows.

Stock light tanks have nerfed scouting range, which means you can attempt to scout a vehicle but if it’s too far away it simply doesn’t work. When you upgrade to the improved optics you seem to be able to scout any vehicle you can see regardless of range.

However nothing I can find in the module description suggests that the module increases the range of the scouting ability

[Internationalism]

@LukavMineav

nk scouting is a powerful tool, but I don’t know that it’s over-powered. There are definitely limitations to it’s use and the player in question has to have a very good understanding of the process in order to consistently get results. Scouting is really only as good as your team, for instance it doesn’t matter how good a scout you are if your team is surrounded or not in a position to destroy or manage the vehicles you spot.

True. That’s why I scout and then kill them myself unless it’s a heavy tank or something unpennable.

[_Marco]

So I believe there is one view of the game that I don’t agree with.
I think many people think light tanks should be as easy to use as heavy or medium tanks. I disagree with that.

I think light tanks having a disadvantage in head to head fights is very fair. Light tanks don’t need to be good in urban combat, they should have the advantage at ambushing, flanking etc. what gives them a massiv tactical advantage if used correctly.
So I see them more in a high risk high reward kind of role. So they are harder to play and highly situational but therefore can have a great impact on the battlefield if played correctly.

Now what the scouting system aims for is removing a chunk of light tanks being situational, so they can scout out of cover, engaging without having to expose their highly vulnerable tanks.

A trend which works against light tanks is the tunneling of the maps, removing space for light tanks to engage. I would like maps to be more like they used to be, so you can actually make use out of good mobility.
Unfortunately, looking at the state of the maps today I understand why you would need scouting. Maps today press light tanks together with medium and heavy tanks, ofc you are going to need a mechanic that makes up for light tanks’ disadvantages in these situations.

Here is a few examples of how old maps were better suited for light tanks than today:

Mozdok:

Back in the days the area marked by the red rectangle was a very lucrative spot only really accessible by fast tanks. Today most of it is cut out of the playable map.
This change worked massively against light tanks.

Normandy:

On the old version you could put a lot of pressure on the enemy team when flanking the south side what fast tanks very especially suited for.
Today, even if the map doesn’t look that much different, Gaijin flattened the whole south side taking away all the opportunities the old version provided for fast movers.

Poland:

Light red area: On the old version you could position there and have an impact on the town. Today there is almost no cover left in addition to a lot of greenery which makes it harder to shoot into the town.

Dark red area: The south can be a very important position on this map, mainly accessible with light tanks. Gaijin deiced to add the sniper hill on the east side (light blue) which seems fair to balance the map but since the west side has way less cover on the south it is way too hard, even with fast tanks, to go there anymore.

Many newer maps:

Ofc they have some of the maps have places for fast paced tanks but they are not comparable to what used to be possible on older ones.
On most of these maps it doesn’t really matter how mobile your tank is. And I guess that’s the issue.

Ironically, on top of the maps becoming worse for light tanks, it is scouting that makes it harder to use light tanks tactically. They rely heavily on avoiding detection by the enemy team.

Edit:
Maybe a good change would be making light tanks more situational again but also giving them the correct maps for that.
I do not dislike scouting because I hate light tanks, it’s more that I don’t think there should be markers following tanks in Ground RB. I wouldn’t mind nerfing scouting and buffing light tanks in a different way in return.

[Ion_Protogen]

@__Marco__

On most of these maps it doesn’t really matter how mobile your tank is. And I guess that’s the issue.

The only ones that applies to is sun city and the small version of Golden Quarry. The rest aren’t small, and they allow for a decent bit of movement with light tanks when played right. Sun city is a bad map all around and should be removed, same with the small Golden Quarry.

@__Marco__

Back in the days the area marked by the red rectangle was a very lucrative spot only really accessible by fast tanks. Today most of it is cut out of the playable map.
This change worked massively against light tanks.

That change is positive in my opinion.

I honestly don’t think that scouting needs to be changed at all, and I don’t see any benefits that could come from nerfing it. Better maps would go a long way to making the entire game better, but that’s a different topic.

[サラトガ]

@Ion_Protogen

I honestly don’t think that scouting needs to be changed at all, and I don’t see any benefits that could come from nerfing it. Better maps would go a long way to making the entire game better, but that’s a different topic.

I mean if anything it need a change and maybe improvement to map will help the situation with scouting a lot more. The biggest grudge i have with scouting that it impact the CAS score alot while scouting on it own isn’t even that hard

[PompousMagnus]

Scouting rework

1. Remove plane cost reduction
2. Add Sixth sense like world of tanks/ or remove active scouts when scouting vehicle dies.

Add light tanks to separate class again allowing them to spawn with independent cost again.

[_Marco]

@Ion_Protogen

@__Marco__

On most of these maps it doesn’t really matter how mobile your tank is. And I guess that’s the issue.

The only ones that applies to is sun city and the small version of Golden Quarry. The rest aren’t small, and they allow for a decent bit of movement with light tanks when played right. Sun city is a bad map all around and should be removed, same with the small Golden Quarry.

But maps used to be much better suited for light tanks, didn’t they?

@Ion_Protogen

@__Marco__

Back in the days the area marked by the red rectangle was a very lucrative spot only really accessible by fast tanks. Today most of it is cut out of the playable map.
This change worked massively against light tanks.

That change is positive in my opinion.

The only positive is spawn camping isn’t as easy anymore.
I really don’t like the map tunneling itself. It’s really not hard to pay attention for possible flankers and it really would make gameplay more divers.
Even though all the new mechanics, War Thunder gameplay has never been as monotonous as it is today.

@Ion_Protogen

I honestly don’t think that scouting needs to be changed at all, and I don’t see any benefits that could come from nerfing it.

I think it’s incredible annoying and shouldn’t be a thing in Ground RB, at least not the way it currently is. You can’t avoid some enemy seeing you for a quick moment. If you are unlucky it’s a light tank, it will scout you and depending on the situation that means the end of you. And you won’t even know if you are scouted. The most effective way to counter possibly being scouted is playing with paranoia. Back when scouting wasn’t a thing you could move much more freely and a 1v1 against light tanks didn’t turn into 1 vs enemy team.
In my opinion in a mode that is a lot about being unrecognized scouting in its current form is too strong.

@PompousMagnus

Scouting rework

1. Remove plane cost reduction
2. Add Sixth sense like world of tanks/ or remove active scouts when scouting vehicle dies.

+1
I have suggested adding a warning and people went mad by it because of it being “too unrealistic”.
On the other hand we now have a scouting mechanic that goes on even after the scouting tank can’t see the enemy he scouts or is dead…

[_Marco]

These are the counterarguments I’ve received from pro-scouting people so far and here is why I don’t agree with them:

1. “Light tanks have so little armor, that’s why they need scouting”

1. Many medium tanks don’t have much more armor than light ones. The best example of this is the comparison between a TAM and a Leopard a1a1. The Leopard has an advantage against autocannons, but the TAM has an advantage against guns thanks to its front-mounted engine and overpen. mechanics. So I don’t understand why, for example, the TAM, which is essentially as good as a Leopard a1a1, needs this mechanic. The similarity to medium tanks applies to many light tanks, especially between 9.0 and 10.0.
2. Especially in mid- and low-tier, light tanks are far faster than all other tanks, and that’s often not the only thing they are good in. In principle, less armor can be well compensated for by other aspects, such as mobility but I do believe that maps should offer more opportunities for mobile vehicles again. On many maps today you simply cannot make great enough use of good mobility.
   Tanks like the Waffenträger don’t have scouting either, they have other qualities that make up for he lack of armor (such as a good cannon). Here, that’s accepted, so why not for light tanks?

2. “Light tanks have such low firepower”

I understand this point a little, especially for tanks with autocannons as their main armament. But:

1. This doesn’t apply to most light tanks; most have at least average firepower.
2. Tanks with autocannons are often called rat tanks for a reason. They may not be able to reliably destroy everyone from the front, but they are extremely deadly against light armor, so it’s a trade-off. A ZSU-75 or Falcon is also often used to hunt tanks without being able to penetrate any tank from anywhere, and all without scouting.

3. “Scouting serves as a tactical compensation for the disadvantage you have compared to squadron players”

This is probably the strongest point in favor of scouting. However, it has a few drawbacks:

1. Squadrons are limited to 4 players. So, scouting is much more powerful, as it reaches not just 3 other players but the entire team with about the same kind of information squadron players can exchange.
2. Why do only light tanks have the privilege of having this “balancing” mechanic? As I’ve already described, light tanks are by no means unplayable. In some cases they literally play just like medium tanks.
3. With scouting, you can, for example, track the movement of enemy vehicles through cover. This is a major advantage that doesn’t exist in squadrons.

Overall, the advantage that squadrons have, although limited to four players, will always exist. The only way to change this would be to abolish squadrons, which I think is beyond debate. If you wanted to balanced squadrons’ advantages, the way to wouldn’t be to give that advantage on steroids to a selected group of tanks.

4. “Scouting makes gameplay easier”

The main difference between Ground RB and Arcade is not less horsepower or no indicators for weak spots, it has always been the absence of markers that show you where the enemy is. If you don’t like that, that is literally what Arcade is made for. What even is the point of Ground RB when some matches look like this:

Scouting is the attempt of turning Ground RB a bit more into Arcade and that in a very bad way on top of that;
Since scouting is given to a handful of tanks, enemies will only get scouted if the right tank sees them and that is a very inconsistent and luck based way to make gameplay easier. It’s just like when ammo exploding was based on RNG because people found it annoying to die from it. At the end of the day, it just makes the game more random and unfair.
Furthermore, in any PvP game, if one player’s life is made easier, another’s automatically becomes harder. Specifically in this case, this means that scouting can make it easier to spot enemies, but it also makes it easier to be spotted by enemies. Just pay attention to how often you get clapped by half the enemy team at once or bombed by an aircraft after coming into contact with an enemy light tank. Often times a 1v1 against a TAM turn out to be way harder than against a Leopard a1a1, just because of scouting.

[KillaKiwi]

What scouting should do is:

• Create a ping with the vehicle type on the map
• Show the vehicle in the enemy team on the score board until destroyed

This informs your team about the existence of the scouted vehicle and shows the position on the map for a short time.
The position should only update when someone has visuals on them.

[Miragen]

Scouting shouldn’t last as long as it does.
Scouting should drop off if a vehicle moves a certain distance away from the point where it was spotted.
A marker could be placed on the minimap that a vehicle was recently scouted in that area after the marker drops from the vehicle.
It should be possible to reapply spotting and reset the cooldown.

Scouting shouldn’t infinitely reduce SP cost.

Spotted targets should still be allowed to be scouted and get rewarded, or all tasks need a significant reduction.
Planes should not get scouting information.

Also hitting a target should not mark it on the minimap, shooting it with an MG should not mark it through the smoke and on the minimap, a plane spraying a tank with MGs should not appear on the minimap either.

[_Marco]

@Miragen

Also hitting a target should not mark it on the minimap, shooting it with an MG should not mark it through the smoke and on the minimap, a plane spraying a tank with MGs should not appear on the minimap either.

I think the markings on the minimap is okay, things like that make RB differ from SB. I think in RB you should, by using your minimap and brain, be able to gather some information about your surroundings.
I would agree that they shouldn’t be shown in the field of view and that you actually have to hit an enemy for that because as it is right now you just have to shoot at his direction, if a projectile passes him he is marked already.

@Miragen

Scouting should drop off if a vehicle moves a certain distance away from the point where it was spotted.

I would prefer the marker not tracking anymore after the scouted tank being out of the FOV. Like that you can get rid of the marker even if you don’t have a lot of space to work with.