USA bullying of everyone else In top tier sim

[UnknownDistance]

[quote=“Panter2005, post:1040, topic:191480”]
It wasn’t meta, but it was meta defining. Any deviation from the meta was heavily punished. [/quote]

Sitting in multi-pathing and shooting 9Ms from side aspect was the meta. Going high to sling R-27ER just meant you were a free kill for Aim-7F. Playing in a way that made you a free kill for everyone else was a deliberate choice on your part.

@Panter2005

Which always played on the red side.

Both Sweden and France can fluctuate to blue side. And they both cannot be paired with Japan. You can revisit some of the earlier arguments in the thread where USA only players were arguing that the game was balanced because red side had the best F-15 and F-16 variants.

The reason France/Sweden in Red was common was because 2/3rds of sim players only wanted to play USA. Which…when you sleep walk to 90 percent wins by virtue of outnumbering and outperforming the vast majority of your opponents…who can blame them?

@Panter2005

No one thought F-4F ICE was equal with F-16C.

People literally still think that it is…ergo they keep arguing that it needs to be up-tiered where it would always fight against top tier aircraft.

@Panter2005

I’m strongly against that. It would have been consistent with the games model yes, but I’m against that model.

For example I see absolutely no reason for the Dutch tree for France. It doesn’t have a single unique vehicle and France didn’t need it either.

It’s just free copy paste content for Gaijin.

USA mains were / are opposed to practically anything that puts other nations on a level playing field. Hence your proposal to basically delete tech trees past a certain range and just allow people to grind USA or USSR planes.

@Panter2005

It’s not even about historical matchmaking, but about expectations. A few rare, unknown vehicles always destroy the experience for everyone else.

Unfortunately that’s beneficial for Gaijin. People will grind the legendary vehicles first, find them to be very mid at best, and then they will grind the rare, easy-to-play, meta vehicles.

Having to fear a Phantom or even worse, a Harrier, while flying a gen 4 jet is humiliating.

People do not like being forced to play vehicles that are uncompetitive in a competitive game. It’s that simple.

What do you think happens to the USA tree at prop tiers of the game balance was based on date that something entered service? It would be Germany slamming P-51Ds out of the sky with Me-163 and Me-262. P-51 D-30 would have to fight Korean war jets.

You don’t have to fear a Phantom or a Harrier in a 4th Gen jet. I played F-15A yesterday and dealing with F-4F ICE / JA-37 was not hard. You look at your RWR, notch the missiles, or multipath…and then force the merge.

@Panter2005

Kit > flight model. Fox 3s are such a huge technological jump, that it doesn’t matter what flight model you have.

If multipathing is the only strat that allows you to hurt the enemy plane in any way, it means your plane is just worse, since multipathing is an artificial safety switch for Gaijin.

You also ignore the fact that fox 1s are once again useless. There is no way you can win a BVR engagement against a fox 3 slinger. F-4F ICE and AV-8B Plus killed fox 1 gameplay even more than R-27ER.

You can ambush them from close range. It’s the same tactics that every red side player has had to master over the past year. Surely you can figure it out.

And the gap in performance of your flight model vs theirs is enormous. The fact that you haven’t thought about how to exploit your performance advantages… especially in something like the F-15A…is just a massive lack of imagination. You are faster, you climb better, you turn better.

@Panter2005

Red side players spawn camp way worse, there’s no way you can convince me otherwise.

I don’t have a time machine to send you back in time to experience the spawn camping that red side players have dealt with since fox 3 update. Basically your perspective is that red side spawn camps worse because you are finally having it happen to you.

@Panter2005

It clearly shifted, but didn’t flip.

Give it some time. If the spawn camping from red side half as bad as you claim that it is then player counts for USA will plummet when they realize that they are RP pinatas for stronger planes.

@Panter2005

That’s pure speculation. We’ll see.

In my opinion as long as Rafale stays popular, which it will, there will be no collapse. Rafales = food, as there is a counter play to them. MICAs lack range, while Eurofighter is superior in every way.

It is speculation but it is based on experience. It’s no different from when MiG-29 flight models were nuked into the ground and caused the popularity of the plane to basically dry up as soon as Aim-9M + F-16C came out.

MICAs lack range but have good acceleration and have good medium range properties. But hey… I’ll be sure to remind you that Rafale = Food when you are eating MICA.

[Panter2005]

@UnknownDistance

Going high to sling R-27ER just meant you were a free kill for Aim-7F.

No if you were high enough. At 3000-5000 meters yes, but not at 8000-10000 meters. If you were flying that high, they could hardly guide their missiles in without leaving multipathing range.

@UnknownDistance

The reason France/Sweden in Red was common was because 2/3rds of sim players only wanted to play USA.

This is what I meant. They can play blue side, but they practically had to play red side, so you can just assume that they were red side nations and Japan was a blue side nation.

@UnknownDistance

People literally still think that it is…ergo they keep arguing that it needs to be up-tiered where it would always fight against top tier aircraft.

I want F-4F ICE and AV-8B Plus at 13.3 not because I think they deserve to be 13.3, but because I think they are too strong for 13.0. Same situation as with Su-27 and Su-33.

@UnknownDistance

USA mains were / are opposed to practically anything that puts other nations on a level playing field.

This is such a manipulative statement that I lose interest in arguing with you. You clearly argue in bad faith.

I don’t want to “bully all the other nations”. I just refuse to pretend some nations even exist at some BR ranges, when they don’t have a single domestic plane design, only foreign ones with their emblems slapped on. I also don’t want recycled content.

@UnknownDistance

What do you think happens to the USA tree at prop tiers of the game balance was based on date that something entered service? It would be Germany slamming P-51Ds out of the sky with Me-163 and Me-262. P-51 D-30 would have to fight Korean war jets.

Except Me 163, Me 262 and P-51D all were one of the best planes in the world when they came out. People have high expectations out of all of them. The same can’t be said about F-4F ICE or AV-8B Plus.

@UnknownDistance

You don’t have to fear a Phantom or a Harrier in a 4th Gen jet. I played F-15A yesterday and dealing with F-4F ICE / JA-37 was not hard. You look at your RWR, notch the missiles, or multipath…and then force the merge.

Assuming the opposing player just flies directly at you like an idiot, which most do, but even then it’s annoying to deal with them when you compare the amount of effort you put in, vs the amount of effort they put in. Often you will notch 3 and the 4th will get you.

@UnknownDistance

You can ambush them from close range. It’s the same tactics that every red side player has had to master over the past year. Surely you can figure it out.

Red side players had fox 3s…

@UnknownDistance

MICAs lack range but have good acceleration and have good medium range properties. But hey… I’ll be sure to remind you that Rafale = Food when you are eating MICA.

You misunderstood what I said, but the way I put it wasn’t great, so my bad.

Rafale is in practice the best plane in the game right now, however at the same time it’s easier to kill than a Eurofighter. Rafale has weaknesses you can exploit, whereas Eurofighter is an F-15 and F-16 combined into 1 + extras.

I die more to Rafales, but also kill more Rafales than Eurofighters.

If red side played only Eurofighters, the blue side player count would collapse, since they would have a much harder time getting kills. That’s probably not what will happen, since Rafale is overall better, easier and more fun to use, so the blue side will have some source of kills and won’t collapse.

That’s why I said Rafales = food. Between the Eurofighter and Rafale, Rafale is more dangerous, but also easier to kill on most maps.

[UniqueScorpions]

@Panter2005

You also ignore the fact that fox 1s are once again useless. There is no way you can win a BVR engagement against a fox 3 slinger. F-4F ICE and AV-8B Plus killed fox 1 gameplay even more than R-27ER.

Now, imagine having terrible flight performance, a decent but often failing radar, and R-77s that almost always miss, combine with what you just said “Fox 1s are once again useless, there is no way you can win a BVR engagement against a fox 3 slinger”
And that is the recipe to play Russia.

R-27ERs have terrible accuracy imo now, and they also cannot kill a target even at max speed launching first it seems. There are many instances I’d launch before a plane carrying aim-120, and I’d be somewhat above him, and he was no where near the ground. Keep in mind I’m using the Su-34 which imo is one of the better radars for Russia (except no ir mode).
I fire, let it go of the rail and track. I slow down to an appropriate speed to give me time against his aim-120, and I dunno 15-20 secs go by and I never lost lock, R-27 never hit, but the Aim-120 does??? Like really?

[kitsune_qq]

@UniqueScorpions

R-27ERs have terrible accuracy imo now, and they also cannot kill a target even at max speed launching first it seems. There are many instances I’d launch before a plane carrying aim-120, and I’d be somewhat above him, and he was no where near the ground. Keep in mind I’m using the Su-34 which imo is one of the better radars for Russia (except no ir mode).
I fire, let it go of the rail and track. I slow down to an appropriate speed to give me time against his aim-120, and I dunno 15-20 secs go by and I never lost lock, R-27 never hit, but the Aim-120 does??? Like really?

multipath maybe?

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@Lolman345

Has been a thing since 2022, I’m rather surprised that you seem to not know of it.

R-27ER and TWS HDN is a nasty combo with the MiG-29 : Warthunder

This isn’t a thing currently and only arose due to a glitch that only persisted for 3 weeks after the introduction of the MiG-29 and its R-27s.

@Lolman345

Lmao, and where did I say that, oh right I didn’t.

@Lolman345

• Forcing head on gunfights in sim

J Jonah Jameson Laugh - Spiderman

@Lolman345

That is unless you think that head on gunfights are the only type of gun kills that occur in sim which is laughable.

Do they not?

Turn away from an A-10C and you’re dead to a missile you won’t see… Fly towards it and you’re dead in a head-on.

[UnknownDistance]

@Panter2005

No if you were high enough. At 3000-5000 meters yes, but not at 8000-10000 meters. If you were flying that high, they could hardly guide their missiles in without leaving multipathing range.

Going to 10,000 meters was just a free kill to someone who knows how to angle their radar dish up.

@Panter2005

This is what I meant. They can play blue side, but they practically had to play red side, so you can just assume that they were red side nations and Japan was a blue side nation.

But you cannot assume they were. People make the argument that red side had access to the best F-16 and the best F-15…and that really isn’t the case. And the French F-16 isn’t really the best either…but that is just another issue.

@Panter2005

I want F-4F ICE and AV-8B Plus at 13.3 not because I think they deserve to be 13.3, but because I think they are too strong for 13.0. Same situation as with Su-27 and Su-33.

13.3 does not have any day of the week where it fights anything other than 14.0. The only reason to move them up is to ensure that USA can still dominate 12.0 - 13.0 or 11.7 - 12.7 on every day of the week. You complain about F-4F ICE ruining your SAR-H gameplay when America has F-14 IRAF with Fakour 90s that does basically the exact same thing at an even lower battle rating.

@Panter2005

Except Me 163, Me 262 and P-51D all were one of the best planes in the world when they came out. People have high expectations out of all of them. The same can’t be said about F-4F ICE or AV-8B Plus.

In practice, a team of Me-163/Me-262s would clobber a team of P-51D-5s every single time. Nobody would play the P-51D-5 in those circumstances.

@Panter2005

Assuming the opposing player just flies directly at you like an idiot, which most do, but even then it’s annoying to deal with them when you compare the amount of effort you put in, vs the amount of effort they put in. Often you will notch 3 and the 4th will get you.

So your complaint is that it is too easy for them to kill you because it takes less effort? Anyone that has played Su-27 for the past year or so has had to become accustomed to notching 6-8 AMRAAMs launched from F-15C.

@Panter2005

Red side players had fox 3s…

Yes…and their ARH missiles are not nearly as long-ranged as the AMRAAM…which means American player will always have massive advantage in high altitude fight and will get to shoot much sooner than Red counterpart.

@Panter2005

You misunderstood what I said, but the way I put it wasn’t great, so my bad.

Rafale is in practice the best plane in the game right now, however at the same time it’s easier to kill than a Eurofighter. Rafale has weaknesses you can exploit, whereas Eurofighter is an F-15 and F-16 combined into 1 + extras.

I die more to Rafales, but also kill more Rafales than Eurofighters.

If red side played only Eurofighters, the blue side player count would collapse, since they would have a much harder time getting kills. That’s probably not what will happen, since Rafale is overall better, easier and more fun to use, so the blue side will have some source of kills and won’t collapse.

That’s why I said Rafales = food. Between the Eurofighter and Rafale, Rafale is more dangerous, but also easier to kill on most maps.

Fair enough. But I think most players respond to dying in sim much faster than they respond to maybe getting kills. Rafale’s strengths ends up complimenting areas where Eurofighter is weak or where Eurofighter doesn’t necessarily have the easiest time due to the radar being only so-so in performance.

[Ion_Protogen]

@Lolman345

Has been a thing since 2022, I’m rather surprised that you seem to not know of it.

You can’t do that anymore, and make sure your information is up to date.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@UnknownDistance

Going to 10,000 meters was just a free kill to someone who knows how to angle their radar dish up.

Hear me out then… 20000m.

@UnknownDistance

Anyone that has played Su-27 for the past year or so has had to become accustomed to notching 6-8 AMRAAMs launched from F-15C.

I’ve become accustomed to stomping those ugly stupids in the superior Su-27.

[Lolman345]

Shame that I ground functionally the entirety of the US tree in sim, I guess I dont play sim.

@UnknownDistance

However I don’t really see what the need for observers and a ref would serve.

Would be exactly how its done in the likes of DCS with a third party controlling the game state to prevent people from engaging early and such.

@Panter2005

This is such a manipulative statement that I lose interest in arguing with you. You clearly argue in bad faith.

How most arguments go pertaining to the US sadly, regardless of the vehicle.

@TheArcticFoxxo

This isn’t a thing currently and only arose due to a glitch that only persisted for 3 weeks after the introduction of the MiG-29 and its R-27s.

You can still do it, I just did in a test flight with the SU-33.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Do they not?

Oh my god you actually think that head on gunfights are the only type of gunfight that occur in sim.

Please get some help.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Turn away from an A-10C and you’re dead to a missile you won’t see… Fly towards it and you’re dead in a head-on.

Ok so fully certifiable skill issue on your part, good to get that out of the way.

@Ion_Protogen

You can’t do that anymore, and make sure your information is up to date.

Ditto to above statement, did so in a test drive with the SU-33 just now. Don’t even need to use TWS, just lock fire, and then dump your track, re-acquiring the target when your missile begins approaching the target.

But I’m not surprised by your response or Foxxo’s, both of you commonly attempt, and fail to win arguments by blatantly lying about stuff that is easily found in game, like this.

[UnknownDistance]

@Lolman345

Would be exactly how its done in the likes of DCS with a third party controlling the game state to prevent people from engaging early and such.

This is why dueling maps have gun timer or both parties agree to not shoot in first turn of duel. You don’t need a referee for that.

[sartt]

@UniqueScorpions

DCS isn’t a primary source

yes dcs has been use to correct gaijin in it happened with the phantom when they thought it couldtmany of there… errors with planes on this game. It happened with the zuni rockets when gaijin employes didn’t think that zunis could fire at their current speed.

[sartt]

@UnknownDistance

Sitting in multi-pathing and shooting 9Ms from side aspect was the meta.

bro, everyone did this.

@UnknownDistance

Going high to sling R-27ER just meant you were a free kill for Aim-7F.

if the AIM 7F hit you and didnt just magically not want to hit / track. It got to the point where everytime i fired the aim 7f i was like " i wonder how its going to miss this time "

@UnknownDistance

when you sleep walk to 90 percent wins by virtue of outnumbering and outperforming the vast majority of your opponents…who can blame them?

sleep walk a win? :D there is no sleep walking a win bombing bases and air field in sim requires time practice and fortitude.

@UnknownDistance

People literally still think that it is…ergo they keep arguing that it needs to be up-tiered where it would always fight against top tier aircraft.

uh what? no one has ever thought that , when gaijin announced the BR of the F4 Ice everyone was like " a phantom fighting 4th gen? at that BR? No way gaijin is doing this.

@UnknownDistance

USA mains were / are opposed to practically anything that puts other nations on a level playing field.

we are not goig to let other nations get our planes, and then be in older variants or models of the same plane with inferior engines or weapons if any of you think this, then you are Out of your F* mind. Warthunder has never been balanced, and when you try to force us to fly inferior planes because you seem to have some weird hate for " US mains " and think that we are going to be silent, you can go kick rocks, or make BIG ROCKS into little rocks.

@UnknownDistance

What do you think happens to the USA tree at prop tiers of the game balance was based on date that something entered service? It would be Germany slamming P-51Ds out of the sky with Me-163 and Me-262

i mean… this does actually happen… in arcade i can meet 4.3 planes in the 50mm ME 262 or 5.3s in the F84 the amount of rage someoe has when they are trying to camp spawns in arcade in a K4 or TA, thinking they are untochable just for the to realize im actually at 33,000 ft diving on them is always funny.

@UnknownDistance

You can ambush them from close range. It’s the same tactics that every red side player has had to master over the past year. Surely you can figure it out.

i agree with this statement, its just harder to do on some maps.

@UnknownDistance

I don’t have a time machine to send you back in time to experience the spawn camping that red side players have dealt with since fox 3 update. Basically your perspective is that red side spawn camps worse because you are finally having it happen to you.

ehh you’re both right and both wrong… i find spawn camping distasteful and just stupid

always good to know people seems to do this in aim sim none stop.

@UnknownDistance

Give it some time. If the spawn camping from red side half as bad as you claim that it is then player counts for USA will plummet when they realize that they are RP pinatas for stronger planes.

it is i’ve been lockers by opFOR planes a total of 20 times spawning in both air sim and ground sim. all red does is spawn camp, and its even worse in ground sim because they also have pantsir and tor m1s

[sartt]

@UniqueScorpions

I fire, let it go of the rail and track. I slow down to an appropriate speed to give me time against his aim-120, and I dunno 15-20 secs go by and I never lost lock, R-27 never hit, but the Aim-120 does??? Like really?

Your missiles don’t hit, because… we know where the missile is at all times. Your missile doesn’t know that we know where it is, even when it doesn’t.

This is why we win, and can dodge your missiles without chaff. This isnt a simple RWR we know how close your missiles are, and when to use Afterburners and when not to.

When i say the U.S Has better planes / tech / electronics, i mean it for a reason, its like a inferior Tactical Situational Display.

the SU 27SM doesn’t have them from all the vid’s i’ve seen, and that su 33 definitely doesn;t have it.

[UniqueScorpions]

@Lolman345

@TheArcticFoxxo

This isn’t a thing currently and only arose due to a glitch that only persisted for 3 weeks after the introduction of the MiG-29 and its R-27s.

You can still do it, I just did in a test flight with the SU-33.

Care to show the class?

[Lolman345]

Why yes, since I have recently mastered the art of making tiny videos for this forum, here you are.

[UnknownDistance]

This has nothing to do with tws. You are launching in STT and then unlocking and then engaging STT again. This is not a strong gimmick in SB when you take into consideration how absolutely abysmal the Su-27 radar is and that you will also be trying to defend from AMRAAM at the same time.

Anyways what about that 1v1? Surely your gunfighting prowess will be illuminating.

[Lolman345]

@UnknownDistance

This has nothing to do with tws.

You can choose to use TWS to keep a visual on the target instead of just waiting or using the missile camera.

@UnknownDistance

This is not a strong gimmick in SB when you take into consideration how absolutely abysmal the Su-27 radar is and that you will also be trying to defend from AMRAAM at the same time.

Don’t care, was stated to be impossible by those before me, I did not come here to prove the efficacy of the tactic.

@UnknownDistance

Anyways what about that 1v1? Surely your gunfighting prowess will be illuminating.

So is it just a gunfight now or otherwise, I’ve already said that I’m fine with either a live match with other players or a curated dogfight, I’m fine with either.

[UniqueScorpions]

@sartt

@UnknownDistance

USA mains were / are opposed to practically anything that puts other nations on a level playing field.

we are not goig to let other nations get our planes, and then be in older variants or models of the same plane with inferior engines or weapons if any of you think this, then you are Out of your F* mind. Warthunder has never been balanced, and when you try to force us to fly inferior planes because you seem to have some weird hate for " US mains " and think that we are going to be silent, you can go kick rocks, or make BIG ROCKS into little rocks.

Irony

[UniqueScorpions]

Oh wow. The same thing the F-14 can do.

[UniqueScorpions]

I’ll spectate