US Top Tier - Abrams, Hellfires, Anti Air and what needs to change

[Necrons31467]

@Klassischer_Durc

But for me it would be better to be able to kill vehicles more efficient with your first shot

You’re essentially asking for the M1’s to receive the ability to roflpen it’s opposition.
That’s asking for major trouble because other nations will want the same treatment and you’re back to square one.

Firepower is just fine as it is.

@Klassischer_Durc

I havent said once Im struggling with the abrams

You said that the firepower isn’t sufficient because you have to aim for weakspots.

Aiming for specific parts of an opposing vehicle is a core gameplay design of the game, there are very few vehicles with the ability to lolpen anything they meet, and they have significant drawbacks in other categories that compensate for this.

The M1’s are easily strong enough in other categories where the ability to lolpen opposing tanks simply wouldn’t be fair.

@Klassischer_Durc

and atm, some vehicles are just clearly worse than others.

Stuff like the T-90A, Challenger 2 TES, Ariete PSO, Challenger OES, T-72B3, etc. are vehicles which don’t stack up well to their competition or don’t suit the META. I can understand complaints about them, but not the M1’s.

That being said, I’m all for the remaining nations to receive vehicles on-par with the Leopard 2A7V and Strv 122, that includes the M1A2 SEP v3, but that doesn’t mean I believe the current M1’s in particular need more buffs or are unique in their suffering when matched against the aforementioned Leos.

[Klassischer_Durc]

@Necrons31467

You’re essentially asking for the M1’s to receive the ability to roflpen it’s opposition.
That’s asking for major trouble because other nations will want the same treatment and you’re back to square one.

Firepower is just fine as it is.

Its not fair to summarize the points Ive made like that, its a straw man argument. Ive already told twice that its not about oneshotting every opposition, its about defeating Kontakt 5 in the hull. Not even the turret, just the hull. That means the T80BVM or T90 would still be immune to it, since they have relic, but tanks at 11.3 or below would be easier to kill. Dont know if it would affect the Leo or 122s, but I doubt it, since the ammunition isnt designed to defeat these tanks.
Other nations have other things going for them like better armor at the leos or higher T Series, the Challenger should be included here too but isnt well protected in its current state, so having worse armor but better killing power against certain vehicles shouldnt be a big deal.

@Necrons31467

Stuff like the T-90A, Challenger 2 TES, Ariete PSO, Challenger OES, T-72B3, etc. are vehicles which don’t stack up well to their competition or don’t suit the META. I can understand complaints about them, but not the M1’s.

That being said, I’m all for the remaining nations to receive vehicles on-par with the Leopard 2A7V and Strv 122, that includes the M1A2 SEP v3, but that doesn’t mean I believe the current M1’s in particular need more buffs or are unique in their suffering when matched against the aforementioned Leos.

Understandable. I still think better ammunition would help the US to get more on par with the current top nations, and the A3 needs to come anyway, maybe with the SEPv3, which would then lead to more seperation to the lower ranks, where that kind of ammunition would be too OP.

[Necrons31467]

@Klassischer_Durc

Its not fair to summarize the points Ive made like that, its a straw man argument.

‘’[…] your ammo isnt strong enough to kill besides enemy weakspots’’

‘‘Whats more concerning for me is the lack of the proper ammunition […]’’

@Klassischer_Durc

its about defeating Kontakt 5 in the hull.

So the Russian vehicles which are already having problems competing will become even worse?

I fail to see how this benefits the M1’s which struggle to deal with the Strv 122 and Leopard 2A7V, and not the T-72B3, T-90A and T-80U.

@Klassischer_Durc

so having worse armor but better killing power

The M1 already has better killing power than any T-90, T-80, Leopard 2 or Strv 122.

[_Ladies_Man_217]

@AlvisWisla

Pantsir’s missile range is 12km against jet CAS targets last time I tested it

Delusional Alvis as always, Pantsir can reach upto 20km last time i tested it, so i don’t know what u smoking but 12 km is BS.

@AlvisWisla

USA top is the largest lineup in the game with the best light tank

Light tank u mean HSTV-L with the worst top tier round?

@AlvisWisla

M829A2 is what defeats older ERA

M829A3 gotta be added to the game, with the same pen but can defeat kontakt.

@AlvisWisla

It’s only 18km against drones and helicopters.

False it can kill upto 20 km and lock on targerts above clouds and fog. Pantsir simply is a BIG mistake there’s no SPAA equivalent to it.

[_Ladies_Man_217]

@Necrons31467

The M1 already has better killing power than any T-90, T-80, Leopard 2 or Strv 122.

But not better armor, it got better mobility but less survivability, the M1 has better technologie but more stuff on the Turret for HE shells to easily penetrate the Turret, Pantsir able to penetrate the SEP2 Turret is insane, and let’s not mention that the SEPV2 can easily get penetrated and one shot none other than the 3BM42 in the hull, the shells literally goes into kill the crew set u on fire damage your engine and goes out, it’s literally a M1 Abrams nothing changed from the 80’s.

[aDSD]

@Klassischer_Durc

but since you need to capture points in order to win, you cant stay in your spot all the time.

Mobility helps.

@Klassischer_Durc

Your armour is too weak to play offensive,

The more I play the more I start to think armour is nearly irrevelant, with good armour people will just spam through your turret neck more.
And it’s not an excuse to say you cant play it aggressively. You have quite more than top tier ranks, yknow.
At pretty much a lot of them there’s examples and examples of vehicles that perform well effectively with just it’s speed.
Both armour and survivability is your pool to take punishment for your mistakes. Or at least that’s how it should be seen, as even with most protected tanks of any times there’s lots of way of knocking it out in WT.
Or a tool to use effectively in scenarios like shooting behind the hills, but mobility covers that.

@Klassischer_Durc

your ammo isnt strong enough to kill besides enemy weakspots

Like everyone.

@Klassischer_Durc

dependend on maps and enemy positioning.

Being able to use mobility and map knowledge, considering and performing your reload rate, as well as considering positions of your enemies are a skill.

Plus given “solutions” regarding Abrams wouldnt solve much.

[Klassischer_Durc]

@Necrons31467

‘’[…] your ammo isnt strong enough to kill besides enemy weakspots’’

‘‘Whats more concerning for me is the lack of the proper ammunition […]’’

These lines are a bit out of context, but to clarify: Im aware of shooting enemy weakspots is the name of the game. As russian vehicles tend to have consistent, small weakspots, it would increase the area where you can kill them with a new top tier round.

@Necrons31467

So the Russian vehicles which are already having problems competing will become even worse?

I fail to see how this benefits the M1’s which struggle to deal with the Strv 122 and Leopard 2A7V, and not the T-72B3, T-90A and T-80U.

And I fail to see russian vehicles having problems. But to be fair, their Winrates might be influenced largely by their insane CAS / AA combination. Yes, the new round wouldnt be beneficial against the best tanks, neither the russians or the Leos. The point is american teams are falling apart for years now and action needs to be taken against it, as we can see in the last patch, when other nations were getting very good additions to their tanks, the SEPv2 war cleary not even a sidegrade.

@aDSD

Mobility helps.

Most of the tanks, besides the slow ones like Challenger or Merkava, are relatively equal going forward, so thats not a big advantage for the abrams, which is getting slower with the SEP1 and 2 without getting much for it besides better thermals.

@aDSD

The more I play the more I start to think armour is nearly irrevelant, with good armour people will just spam through your turret neck more.

I think it depends on the situation. If your facing an equally skilled player on equal terms, your armor would make the difference. Since in your Abrams, you need to aim carefully at the drivers hatch, the gun mantlet or the lower frontal plate, while on a T Series, you can aim at the very large LFP or the big turret ring/gun mantlet of the abrams. Yes, most of the times there are way more things to consider. In the game, positioning becomes very important. But when comparing tanks, you need to think of equal terms imho, to clearly see whats the better vehicle.

@aDSD

Plus given “solutions” regarding Abrams wouldnt solve much.

If thats the case, it shouldnt be a thing to give the tank its ammo thats been in use since like 20 years, right?

[aDSD]

@Ladies__Man_217

Another Alvis huh? Can you explain to me how Sweden has higher winrates than whole nations in the game if the armor isn’t irrelevant?

Punishment which comes from spall liners, aka survivability. Armour being an effect is more of your opponent’s mistake and not something your armour decides for you. In other words it’s something that actually helps in small amounts of times, considering your 90% isnt premiums.

@Ladies__Man_217

I can play the Abrams pretty aggressively even if my Armor is literally made from Plastic?? imagine what i could do if no one can pen my hull!!!

Do you see Israel, France, Italy, Japan players sitting ducks on spawn or always behind a rock waiting to be CASed or pushed?

@Ladies__Man_217

Both of them are absurd and super awful soo???

In other words you want something as a crutch for the lack of skill in your team.

@Ladies__Man_217

Still a BVM gonna push your spawn even if you get 20 kills and spawn a nuke there gonna be 10 pantsir,4 su27, 2 mig29smt and leopards

So in other words your way is going right into center and getting pushed all way back?

@Ladies__Man_217

Thats a retarded thing to say ngl.

All targets wont be a T-80U and armour wont do shit while the turret neck is existent.

@Klassischer_Durc

are relatively equal going forward, so thats not a big advantage for the abrams

Nope.
Nowhere close, especially the Challengers.
And even then both Merkava and Challengers outperform Abrams, both having literally worse everything.

[Klassischer_Durc]

@aDSD

Nope.
Nowhere close, especially the Challengers.

I literally mentioned the Challenger in the subordinate clause you have taken away in that quote… Leos, T-Series, Chinese, Japanese and american tanks are pretty close in forward mobility, only the reverse rates are very different, with american tanks getting worse with every more modern variant, without the addition of better armor.

[Necrons31467]

@Klassischer_Durc

it would increase the area where you can kill them with a new top tier round.

You’re dodging my points here.

You yourself said that this would only affect Kontakt-5 -equipped Russian tanks, those are the T-90A, T-72B3 and T-80U. Those three vehicles are already struggling to compete.

Meanwhile, it wouldn’t change anything for the T-90M and T-80BVM, once again, you yourself said it wouldn’t do much against Relikt -equipped tanks.

Why do you want to nerf the vehicles which the M1 didn’t have a problem dealing with anyways?

@Klassischer_Durc

And I fail to see russian vehicles having problems.

If you believe the T-72B3, T-90A or T-80U (to a lesser extend) don’t have problems competing at 11.7 matchmaking, you haven’t played them.

@Klassischer_Durc

The point is american teams are falling apart for years now

‘‘For years now’’

Hyperbole isn’t going to convince me of your arguments I’m afraid.

Just over a year ago, the M1A2 SEP was sitting on a 70% winrate and the IPM1/M1A1 well above 70% for months.

@Klassischer_Durc

and action needs to be taken against it

Yes, that means premium/squadron vehicles for other nations at 11.3 as well.
The problem with US high tier is squarely with it’s horrendously poor playerbase, not the MBT’s they have at their disposal.

@Klassischer_Durc

when other nations were getting very good additions to their tanks, the SEPv2 war cleary not even a sidegrade.

T-90M was also a sidegrade to the T-80BVM, as were the Leclerc AZUR, Challenger 3TD and plenty of other vehicles. Even the Strv 122B+ is still a sidegrade.

[aDSD]

You would be ignoring mobility as a whole which isnt as lacking as you try to portrait.
Theres more than forward speed and reverse speed like how fast your tank rotates, get to their respective speeds and how much they lose while adjusting their movement.

[_Ladies_Man_217]

@aDSD

Punishment which comes from spall liners, aka survivability.

Abrams got spall liners but it’s considered a real one because it’s not like the Russian one.

@aDSD

and not something your armour decides for you

You don’t even play with US teams so your point doesn’t make sense at all.

@aDSD

In other words it’s something that actually helps in small amounts of times

It helps 99% of the time if someone shot at me and it didn’t do anything to me it would be a great benefit won’t it?

@aDSD

Do you see Israel, France, Italy, Japan players sitting ducks on spawn or always behind a rock waiting to be CASed or pushed?

Ladies__Man_217:

US play 90% of the time against Russia, it can’t spawn CAS its gonna get sandwiched, it cannot spawn an SPAA since it cannot do absolutely nothing against the SU-25SM3 so i don’t know why u compare them nations with US since most of them are small nations compared with the US.

@aDSD

In other words you want something as a crutch for the lack of skill in your team.

I won’t say that the US teams doesn’t lack skill, they do but most of the players do have skills but infortunately they get crushed while most of the time they play against the Copium BVM, and leos.

@aDSD

So in other words your way is going right into center and getting pushed all way back?

What you gonna do about it? pop smoke every 2 sec to not get killed by a Vikhr? or hide between buildings to not get stomped on by SU-25SM3?? or kill tanks that got spall liners and let’s not mention the Stalin BVM side armor thats made from copîum.

@aDSD

All targets wont be a T-80U and armour wont do shit while the turret neck is existent.

Klassischer_Durc:

You do realize that the Army won’t let a weak spot like that stay for long to be in one of the latest tanks such as the SEPV2???

@aDSD

And even then both Merkava and Challengers outperform Abrams, both having literally worse everything.

UK and Israel play with the winning team most of the time, you’re onto nothing buddy.

[_Ladies_Man_217]

@Necrons31467

The problem with US high tier is squarely with it’s horrendously poor playerbase, not the MBT’s they have at their disposal.

You mean the COPY and PASTE abrams??

@Necrons31467

If you believe the T-72B3, T-90A or T-80U (to a lesser extend) don’t have problems competing at 11.7 matchmaking, you haven’t played them.

Unpenetrable Hull and turret, poor mobility (not my fault the Russians are too stupid to add good mobility to their tanks)

@Necrons31467

Those three vehicles are already struggling to compete.

Nah they’re not, the players that play with them are struggling, Russia gets the best of the best, and still they struggle??? How? u gonna mention mobility, turret rotation, that’s how it is in real life,???

@Necrons31467

Meanwhile, it wouldn’t change anything for the T-90M and T-80BVM, once again, you yourself said it wouldn’t do much against Relikt -equipped tanks.

T90M is equipped with such thing? it dies easily, i guess i would do better if we had the same armor, put Relikt on Abrams and let’s see how we gonna do and winrates gonna stay the same.

@Necrons31467

Just over a year ago, the M1A2 SEP was sitting on a 70% winrate and the IPM1/M1A1 well above 70% for months.

The good ol’ days, when Russia used to get stomped on like they do in real life. But BOOM let’s nerf the ADATS copy and paste the whole abrams, nerf anything that’s american, not model correctly anything that’s western, and let’s give Sweden better armor than leopards because yeah WE devs love Sweden hehehehe.

[Klassischer_Durc]

@Necrons31467

If you believe the T-72B3, T-90A or T-80U (to a lesser extend) don’t have problems competing at 11.7 matchmaking, you haven’t played them.

Correct, I havent played them. The T90a is a vehicle with a way lower BR, so it shouldnt be a concern that it struggles to compete at 11.7. Dont have a clear opinion on the other two.

@Necrons31467

‘‘For years now’’

Hyperbole isn’t going to convince me of your arguments I’m afraid.

Just over a year ago, the M1A2 SEP was sitting on a 70% winrate and the IPM1/M1A1 well above 70% for months.

Do you have a source for that? I can only remember US hardly going to 50 percent, most of the times way lower than that. Concerning winrates, youre saying that russia struggles, while their winrates are constantly very high.

@Necrons31467

Yes, that means premium/squadron vehicles for other nations at 11.3 as well.
The problem with US high tier is squarely with it’s horrendously poor playerbase, not the MBT’s they have at their disposal.

Thats an argument I wanted to avoid. Its just a claim that you are making and doesnt bring anything worth talking about. In my opinion, the playerbase of the most popular nations is equally skilled since many new player want to play them. Minor nations often have more experienced players.

@Necrons31467

T-90M was also a sidegrade to the T-80BVM, as were the Leclerc AZUR, Challenger 3TD and plenty of other vehicles. Even the Strv 122B+ is still a sidegrade.

And as I said, SEPv2 wasnt even a sidegrade. T90M offered better survivability due to spall liners and a better protected caracell, the Chally 3 better Ammo, the 122B+ better survivability. The SEPv2 was just heavier, more easy to spot. Nothing more.

@aDSD

You would be ignoring mobility as a whole which isnt as lacking as you try to portrait.
Theres more than forward speed and reverse speed like how fast your tank rotates, get to their respective speeds and how much they lose while adjusting their movement.

Even when taking these things into account, they are still pretty close, and the M1 gets to the worst end. So theres no point in going further into specific turn rates etc, its the same result.

[SanguineSerpent]

@Necrons31467

But that doesn’t mean that any other MBT is a poor vehicle just because they don’t stack up with these Leo’s.

Well, what does that make any other MBTs… other than being inferior?

[SanguineSerpent]

@Necrons31467

That being said, I’m all for the remaining nations to receive vehicles on-par with the Leopard 2A7V and Strv 122, that includes the M1A2 SEP v3, but that doesn’t mean I believe the current M1’s in particular need more buffs or are unique in their suffering when matched against the aforementioned Leos.

I 100% agree. But again, I would like to see other nations with vehicles that can be just ON-PAR with the Strv 122s and Leo 2A7Vs. This includes every nation, like Italy and Israel, including the US. Their suffering isn’t special compared to something like the Ariete, but it’s still unbalanced. Just that there are more US mains than Italian mains, and that exacerbates their voice on the matter.

Another key point is that Germany gets chosen to be on the same team as Sweden and USSR (and sometimes other minor nations) against USA, which substantially affects the winrate and the problem of unequal MBTs.

From what I can tell, USA’s MBTs aren’t the only problem, but the teammates that teams consist of (premium inexperienced players with clickbaits). But even then, the winrate in Japan between 10.0 and 12.0 hasn’t really changed that much after the Fuji came out. So are inexperienced players that much better in the Fuji than in the Clickbait?

[aDSD]

@Ladies__Man_217

Abrams got spall liners but it’s considered a real one because it’s not like the Russian one.

Cope about external spall liner or liner only for ammo rack: Pick it.

@Ladies__Man_217

You don’t even play with US teams so your point doesn’t make sense at all.

Do you think online is strictly Allies vs Axis or NATO vs Warsaw Pact and USSR or smth to say that ?

@Ladies__Man_217

It helps 99% of the time if someone shot at me and it didn’t do anything to me it would be a great benefit won’t it?

aDSD:

If seeing armoured tank doesnt make you think and shoot into the weakspots even at top tier I only think you bought your way there through premiums and such.

@Ladies__Man_217

US play 90% of the time against Russia,

Never knew you had official statistics but alr.

@Ladies__Man_217

it can’t spawn CAS its gonna get sandwiched, it cannot spawn an SPAA since it cannot do absolutely nothing against the SU-25SM3 so i don’t know why u compare them nations with US since most of them are small nations compared with the US.

If existance of Pantsir is your only argument then I wont take it.
Theres countless videos of people yet succeding or even straight up slaughtering Pantsir’s.
Plus taking an aircraft or shooting the missiles down are always an option, first of which should be made more viable by making aircraft’s with no ground attacking weaponry cost much less, not only USA problem but really is a problem of every each nation in game all BRs and ranks.

@Ladies__Man_217

I won’t say that the US teams doesn’t lack skill, they do but most of the players do have skills but infortunately they get crushed while most of the time they play against the Copium BVM, and leos

So maybe stay out of the stream of teammates who just push W before getting crushed and do something else but not just pressing W key and hoping firepower of your team will be better?

@Ladies__Man_217

What you gonna do about it? pop smoke every 2 sec to not get killed by a Vikhr? or hide between buildings to not get stomped on by SU-25SM3?? or kill tanks that got spall liners and let’s not mention the Stalin BVM side armor thats made from copîum.

And hows your copium/anytime suggested is supposed to help?
War was never symmetrical yet better equipment never granted the win.
And yes cover and smokes are a tool and I cant imagine playing even T series without those.

@Ladies__Man_217

You do realize that the Army won’t let a weak spot like that stay for long to be in one of the latest tanks such as the SEPV2???

As I havent seen any angle increase or something that would include armour increase not really.
From you it sounds like cope but from IRL stand point round hitting that exact place is just as unlikely as something hitting lower plate or driver port of T series.

@Ladies__Man_217

UK and Israel play with the winning team most of the time, you’re onto nothing buddy.

Again you doing nothing but pulling shit out of nothing.
You have nothing to back your words with.
As I tried to represent it’s not the tools winning for you but the players.
In such manner I had an uptier while playing soviet 10.7, had best scenario by your words, Sweden and USSR being coupled together.
Yet we lost to other team with their best player being literally the last Challenger 2 premium basically bringing his team to a victory.

[Necrons31467]

@Klassischer_Durc

Do you have a source for that?

@Klassischer_Durc

youre saying that russia struggles

I have not.

I said the T-72B3, T-80U and T-90A struggle to compete.
I said nothing about the T-80BVM, T-90M, Russian CAS, SPAA, etc. struggling in general.

@Klassischer_Durc

the playerbase of the most popular nations is equally skilled

They clearly aren’t, exactly because of the large numbers of low level players that rushed their way to top-tier USA.
Flavour of the month effect is also a thing that’s been with us since the start of War Thunder, the Leopard 2A7V is the flavour of the month and thus attracts skilled players.

@Klassischer_Durc

And as I said, SEPv2 wasnt even a sidegrade

It clearly is.

@Klassischer_Durc

T90M offered better survivability due to spall liners and a better protected caracell

And significanly worse acceleration, worse reload rate, worse reverse speed, etc. compared to the T-80BVM.
Many people still prefer the T-80BVM over the T-90M.

@Klassischer_Durc

the Chally 3 better Ammo

But worse reload.
Hence a sidegrade. You’d know this if you played these vehicles.

@Klassischer_Durc

the 122B+ better survivability.

I get the feeling you are completely unfamiliar with playing anything but US tanks.

All Strv’s received spall liners, the Strv 122B doesn’t have better survivability at all.

I would suggest you start playing those other nations, because it’s becoming more and more a case of ‘‘US Main thinks grass is always greener on the other side’’.

[aDSD]

@Necrons31467

But worse reload.
Hence a sidegrade. You’d know this if you played these vehicles.

Even with 2s its better reload for such bad first stage ammo rack and not specifically best penetration.
That making it 2 top tier worthy vehicles with America having 3, same SPAA’s , same helicopter basis.
Yet one you find with 30% winrate.

There is even one russian youtuber to call Challengers being at 3rd best MBT and calling it the best nation. Quite rich for something you would think struggles if you only accounted for “META” as anything viable.

[_Ladies_Man_217]

@aDSD

Cope about external spall liner or liner only for ammo rack: Pick it.

Both actually, it has been proved u can check sources that’s been rotting here for months and get ignored by people like u.

@aDSD

Do you think online is strictly Allies vs Axis or NATO vs Warsaw Pact and USSR or smth to say that ?

Did i say something such as this?? or you just getting this shit from your brain?

@aDSD

If seeing armoured tank doesnt make you think and shoot into the weakspots even at top tier I only think you bought your way there through premiums and such.

I know every tank weakspots but that’s not enough to defeat all of them, you need good helis with good missiles, good CAS, good SPAA to defend u from getting stomped on by the absolute BS SU-25SM3.

@aDSD

Never knew you had official statistics but alr.

Why would i need one when i play against them most of the time??

@aDSD

If existance of Pantsir is your only argument then I wont take it.

I don’t care if you take or not buddy, the existence of Pantsir in the game is a mistake.

@aDSD

Theres countless videos of people yet succeding or even straight up slaughtering Pantsir’s.

Yeah no shit and there’s videos of the Pantsir slaughtering and taking down MAVS mid-air.

@aDSD

So maybe stay out of the stream of teammates who just push W before getting crushed and do something else but not just pressing W key and hoping firepower of your team will be better?

Ladies__Man_217:

Russians and every nation do this one most of the time i don’t see you mentioning that?

@aDSD

And hows your copium/anytime suggested is supposed to help?

Crazy how it does make sense to you only.

@aDSD

War was never symmetrical yet better equipment never granted the win.

Better equipment is granting an absolute win, delusional statements lmao

@aDSD

From you it sounds like cope but from IRL stand point round hitting that exact place is just as unlikely as something hitting lower plate or driver port of T series.

Ladies__Man_217:

They don’t need to, there’s special shells for that, also t-series are old META that still getting used to this day is sad honestly and let’s not mention the turret POP.

@aDSD

Again you doing nothing but pulling shit out of nothing.

If you play top tier you would agree but yet you’re doing absolutely nothing but mentioning low BR expecting it to validate your point pal.

@aDSD

As I tried to represent it’s not the tools winning for you but the players.

The tools are lacking in the US tech tree, but players are here suffering.

@aDSD

Yet we lost to other team with their best player being literally the last Challenger 2 premium basically bringing his team to a victory.

WOOW a good premium player i’m really surprised, so you getting stomped on by a challi is somehow a thing to mention?? + why you bringing 10.7 into +11.7 topic?