This topic was briefly raised by @G3ntl3man95 When the GR.4 was first introduced to the Dev server, but as far as I am aware, it has not particularly proceeded past that.
I understand that an aircraft having Aim-9Ms can justify its BR being thrown up, as seen with many other aircraft. However my concern here lies in the fact that the Tornado GR.4 is now regularly being uptiered to face aircraft that carry 4!!! High-G IRCCM missiles (R-73Es) in addition to 6!!! AMRAAMs. It feels obscene that an aircraft carrying 2x short range IR missiles should have to face an aircraft with better flight performance and weaponry far superior. It makes sense in my mind to move the Tornado GR.4 down to 11.7 or at least 12.0, so that it doesn’t face things like the (Premium) Su-30s
You are comparing a strike aircraft that has air to air weaponry as a last ditch attempt to defend itself with a dedicated multirole aircraft that is used both as fighter and an attacker. They should not have equal air to air capabilities. Same as IRCCM missiles should not exist below 12.0, even on subsonic aircrafts (looking at you Su-25 and A-10)
Id be worried that 2x ASRAAM wouldnt be good enough to offset the massive BR increase and it would become completely impossible to actually ever use. Especially to use it like a ground attacker
I think we need a GR4 (late) with them. Leaves an airframe lower and slightly more usable and then another for whatever BR ASRAAM would be at. Could then also get other later upgrades too like Brimstone 2s and Britecloud
Yes, however since the gamemode of Air RB is primarily governed by an aircraft’s ability to shoot down enemy aircraft, it is not particularly fair that a brick of an aircraft with 2x capable missiles (within 4km) plays against an aircraft that can carry the exact same class of air to air missile in greater quantity, as well as a superior A2A missile. The ‘Strike Aircraft’ argument has been answered by the split br updated (which was much needed) - implying that it’s air RB br is representative of it’s A2A capabilities rather than it’s air to ground.
If gaijin believed it to be a primarily strike aircraft, I would have expected a split br situation, where it may sit at ~12.7 for GRB and ~12.0 for ARB. But since it has a single br, it would suggest that the aircraft is approximately as capable in air battles as it is in ground, which simply isn’t true. I do agree thay it isn’t designed to be played as an A2A aircraft, but in the current Air RB match style, and with the addition of the fact that split BRs have been introduced for other ‘strike aircraft that carry defensive IR missiles’ - just like the A-10C with 4x Aim-9Ms at only 11.7 like you mentioned - this aircraft should have a lower BR for specific air battles
Even there, and even after ALARM. Im just not sure its good enough to be 12.3 and whether it would be better suited for 12.0. Which then also makes it usable alongside the limited 12.0 lineup rather than using at 12.7 where you might as well just use the Typhoon unless you specifically want to fire ALARM.
Yes, that is why fighter aircrafts exist. However, there are ground targets present in the game mode, so a strike aircraft isn’t forced into actively engaging enemy aircrafts, and can only do it in a matter of self-defence.
This is not correct, there are plenty of factors that go into the br consideration, and the main one isn’t even how effective it is at fighting air or ground targets, it is how good aircraft is at getting RP and SL.
you are only looking at air to air performance in ARB, excluding CAS capabilities against AI targets.
There is no supersonic attacker with guided munitions and IRCCM Fox-2 missiles below 12.3
The thing is. It would be 11.7 if not for the Aim-9Ms (based upon Tornado RET8). Its A2A performance therefore is dictating its current BR, and gaijin for some reason considers the Tornado GR4 superior to any fighters at or below 12.0. Including aircraft like the Tornado F3, which makes little sense. 9Ms can be good, but they are not that good.
Jaguar IS technically has both at 11.3 and is supersonic.
But the guided weapons are totally and completely irrelevant. Maybe if we had FnF Brimstones and the rewards for killing AI targets were decent, then they could be a factor, but I just usually run the exact same 5x Mk13 loadout that I do on the Tornado GR1.
At which point, it should then be compared to the Mirage F1, a supersonic aircraft with 2x Magic II (IRCCM) and 2x SARH (Weak ones I know, but better than none) at 12.0.
Long term solution is a decompression and a total PvE/Ground attacker overhaul. But short term, I think 12.0 would be reasonable and would move it out of sight of the 13.3 premiums. I use to enjoy the GR4, and since the Su-30s were added, its no longer fun to mess about in
Actually, Im pretty sure it has only ever been the Tornado were guided munitions were factored into the BR. And they finally moved the GR1, ASSTA1 and (1995) down to 11.3 alongside the non-guided munition versions. Or at the very least, the ONLY reason and it was extremely obvious
and what can the GR4 actually carry that is worth ever using in ARB. Heck even in ASB, its hardly ever worth it. As I said, I usually just run unguided bombs.
PGMs only result in 2-3 AI kills for a massive increase in weight (usually slows you down enough that you wont get a base kill), would rather just use the gun for said AI kills
Brimstones are SAL, not worth using when being hunted by fighters
PW4s are nice with GNSS, but AI targets arent worth enough to bother with in ARB
ALARM, there are no SEAD targets. I tried yesterday, didnt fire one.
So I just run Mk13s. Totally unguided bombs. Heck the GR1 has a more usable guided loadout than the GR4 with Seagles as there are some naval targets. Even the Ret8 technically has a stronger CAS loadout for ARB with GBU-39s
Again though, why are the Tornado GR4/SLE so much stronger than the Mirage F1 that they require being 0.3 higher?
I can’t say for sure, this would require to look through bunch of aircrafts and i am too lazy for that.
This is your thought process as a player that wants to maximise rewards. Gaijin, obviously, thinks otherwise. We wouldn’t had atrociously low rewards in GRB if gaijin looked into how people grind RP and SL and what is worth using or not.
In an attacker role it is. Why Tornado ADV is at 12.0 while weaker GR.4 is at 12.3?
i mean ability of an aircraft to kill ground targets. Mirage has only dumb bombs and rockets, GR.4 has large amount of guided bombs, rockets and even ARMs. You can say that all of this is “worthless” in ARB, but it makes killing ground targets easier. And easier means stronger.
Guided bombs its no stronger than the ASSTA1 at 11.3 or RET8 at 11.7.
Brimstones are simply never worth using, it is actually easier to just use the gun or unguided bombs.
The PGMs are present on the GR1 at 11.3, TV guided versions sure, but just the same to use
There is nothing to fire ARMs at bar the AI AA at the enemy AF and it keeps radar off until you get within range. Trust me, I tried to use them yesterday, they literally added nothing to use them against. (and again, they are also present at 11.7 on the RET8)
So yes, technically you can argue that the GR4 can kill 2-3 AI targets a little easier than the Mirage F1, but it cant kill them any easier than multiple 11.3 or 11.7 aircraft already can. So I dont consider it relevant at all. As stated before, the ONLY reason the GR4 is at 12.3 and not 11.7 that I can determine, that anyone can really determine is that it has 9Ms and not 9Ls.
Therefore it should be judged on that and that alone. At which point, I would consider them roughly equal to the Mirage F1 at 12.0
Then we can just add a bunch of SPAAs to the ground forces that would make killing them with dumb ordnance nigh impossible (yes, i just want to see the world burn).
Again, it is your thinking process as a player, gaijin thinks otherwise and considers other things to be more relevant.
Sure, ive been advocating for an overhaul of ARB/ASB for years that would add meaningful value to ground attackers in general. At higher BRs this should also include SEAD but also targets were taking GBUs over unguided bombs is actually worth it.
It should be challenging and thus fun, but not stupidly OP. Air Sim for the past 3 years + NT event does prove though that Gaijin doesnt actually understand the difference and just makes everything OP when it comes to AI SPAA
Then there is no balance at all and they should just move the GR4/SLE down to 11.3 with the other Tornados.
That is an option too, but for now its 12.0 and the GR4/SLE are suffering since the Great Compression, until such time we actually get a decompression, I think 12.0 would be a reasonable Stopgap BR
i am against adding more IRCCM missiles to the bracket where aircrafts with as little as 12 flares could face them. Magic 2 is already bad enough.
If gaijin will actually listens to what people suggested for Nuclear Thunder overhaul - there might be hope. But i doubt it, CAS aircrafts in ARB will be doomed to be irrelevant.
