Tornado GR.1 Balance Issue

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
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31

9Ms would move it up in BR

It wouldn’t and shouldn’t, people keep on going over how the Tornado GR.1 with AIM-9Ms would have to move up and I simply disagree, the performance of the vehicle itself already warrants a BR of 11.3/11.0 and giving it AIM-9Ms would put it on par with other 11.7 vehicles and give it a fighting chance at its BR.

Lets make a quick comparison between the Tornado GR.1 with AIM-9Ms and the Mirage F1C-200:

Mirage F1C-200

  • Has better A2A missiles (Magic 2s, 530Fs and 540Es)
  • Is significantly more manoeuvrable
  • Has more A2A missiles (5 for the Mirage vs 2 for the Tornado)
  • Has a more steady and overall better acceleration iirc
  • Has more practical countermeasures
  • Will out speed the Tornado to the base (when equipped with bombs)
  • Is a overall better vehicle in almost every metric albeit being 0.3 higher in BR (without AIM-9Ms)

Tornado GR.1 + AIM-9Ms

  • Has worse A2A missiles (AIM-9Ms)
  • Is significantly less manoeuvrable (flies more like a F-104 minus the speed)
  • Has less A2A missiles (5 for the Mirage vs 2 for the Tornado)
  • Has worse acceleration iirc
  • More restrictive countermeasures when compared to the Mirage
  • Will NOT out speed the Mirage to the base
  • Is a significantly worse vehicle whilst being 0.7 higher like proposed by multiple people here lmfao

If you honestly believe that giving AIM-9Ms to the Tornado GR.1 would warrant a BR any higher than 11.7 then you’re delusional (not targeting anyone), the vehicle with AIM-9Ms is still significantly inferior when compared to the F-4S or Mirage F1C-200, the low quantity of missiles and dogsh*t flight platform acts as a counterweight to the good AIM-9Ms.

People keep on forgetting that a GR.1 with AIM-9Ms is still a obese GR.1

Giving it AIM-9Ms only makes the experience for Tornado GR.1 players at 11.7 more bearable, it’d still be fast food for most vehicles

3 Likes
32

@TPS_Hydra
F1C is as maneuverable:

Spoiler

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The Magic 2s are the only better missiles, which it has the same amount as the Tornado if the F1C decides to bring a base of bombs due to not having the double mount of F1CT.
F1C is slower to bases than Tornado due to lower top speed and acceleration.
F1C has less bomb load.

AIM-9Ms are not worse than Magic 2s, they’re equal.
Same maneuverability.
Tornado has better acceleration to its top speed. 95 seconds vs 110 seconds, easily out-speeding Mirages to bases.

Spoiler

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And that’s not even with the meta base bombing loadout for the Tornado.

image
Zero results. If your post is going to contain lies, don’t make it obvious.

33

Maybe he is referring to GR.4 in 12 3BR. And difference between GR.4 and GR.1 is two steps.
(+0.6-0.7BR)

Don’t call others a ‘gaslight’ too quickly.
I think he isn’t gaslighting but disagreeing.

Well, maybe further arguing about ‘gaslight or disagreement’ is no more than derailing, so I think I need to ask you to stop politely.

Stay in topic
Love tonka and Discuss about Tonka.

Edit: glad that now we are in topic.

1 Like
36

@TPS_Hydra
We’re right, the Mig-21Bison is different cause it’s fighter only.
Tornado GR4 has 2 AIM-9Ms AND a base load of bombs, and/or a ton of Brimstones, tho the Brimstones are worse.

Neither screenshot cut off the time in the bottom left corner; and the video screenshot was sent.
And yes the F1C was given less fuel and is still slower than the Tornado.

The fact your post accuses Statshark of ragebaiting you is wild.

I’m being kind to you and treating you well, and your posts aren’t…
Your perspectives are valuable to me regardless of how worse your posts treat others.

37

9Ms don’t belong on a supersonic airframe at 11.7. There’s also the Tornado at 12.3 with more CMs and better engines, so I don’t believe that it would be fine at 11.7. You can also look at the A-10C that also has 9Ms at 11.7, and that certainly isn’t equal to a Tornado with 9Ms.

I’d prefer 9Ms at that BR honestly, and the Mirages radar missiles aren’t the best.

They’re equivalent missiles.

Then why is the 12.3 tornado with 9Ms 12.3? What about the A-10C, or even the Jh-7A with no IRCCM at 12.3? There’s also issues with 9Ls to 9Ms only being an 0.3 BR increase, which is too little for that BR imo.

1 Like
38

At least in the JH-7A’s case it performs really well and has 2 more good missiles.
And yeah most aircraft at 0.7BR upticks from 9Ms, if not more.
There are instances of OP aircraft with 9Ms only being 0.3 which is an issue.

I respect TPS’s perspectives.
I’m just sharing my own not wanting the first Tornado Britain has to be 12.3 with the Tornado they have.

39

Before this gets out of hand and the thread closed (this is an important issue that the CMs were supposed to do a thread covering last summer and never did)

Tornado GR1, ASSTA1 and IDS (1995) could get IRCCM and remain at 11.7. Im largely on the fence whether they would be too strong for 11.7 with that loadout or just about right. That being based upon aircraft like the F-111C/F with 6x 9Ls as well as aircraft like the Mig-23MLD with 4x R-60M + 2x R-24T/R being 11.7.

Ultimately though. They dont implicity need their IRCCM missiles and that is a meaningful upgrade for the late variants.

What is without a doubt needed is either an 11.3 BR or justification for them to be 11.7. My personal preference for the GR1 would be BOL, that should be just about enough to justify the 11.7 BR by giving it the extra mass of flares to make use of.

I am though of the strong opinion that for a ground attack aircraft, that should not be using any AAM if flown right (granted that is a luxury largely reserved for ASB at the moment) a lower BR is massiveely more valuable than the better AAMs (I actually hated the Gr7 getting 9Ms and I am so glad we finally have the T.10) . So if given the choice, I would chose being 11.3 over 11.7 with IRCCM and having the constant threat of it being 12.0 without all the buffs the GR4 has.

(I am also on the fence whether the GR4 should be 12.0, but I think id also just prefer Tornado buffs)

After that, Tornado IDSs just need buffs

  • Mk103 engine for the GR1
  • Radar being modeled
  • Combat Thrust
  • Completion of FM (if possible)
  • BL755 (these could be psuedo-napalm like weapons) (MW-1 and JP233 would just be awesome weapons to add flavour)
2 Likes
40

The issue is the only way for Tornado GR1 to get AIM-9Ms is for it to move up, or all strike aircraft to move down.
Its literal equal in air RB with AIM-9Ms is 12.3.
The multirole aircraft are 12.0 with a lower bomb load or missile capability.

Outside that, general fixes for vehicles is something I always support.

41

Except its not. GR4 gets 560 more flares, all-aspect MAWS and HMS (just covering the A2A stuff) as well as the better engines (which is relevant at the moment, but shouldnt be) and is just barely worthy of being 12.3. Its rather hard to do much when you have F-18s breathing down your necks, let alone anything from 13.0/13.3.

But im not going to sit here and debate this. I think the GR1 could get Aim-9Ms and not be unreasonably balanced at 11.7, but would rather just keep 9Ls and drop down to 11.3

2 Likes
42

Naah I don’t think Current Tornado GR.1 with

  • half-baked FM
  • worthless payload for current ARB meta which only napalm rules.
  • outdated Mk.101 engine

Is 12.3 material as 2000DR-1 does.
Even if it gets 9M, still GR.1 will not have BOL and HMS

I prefer being down to 11.3 w/o 9M though.

4 Likes
43

The engines would matter if it changed that mach 1.07 cruise speed with bombs, but it doesn’t.
It’s primarily 0 - 400kph acceleration boost, which doesn’t beat FG1’s acceleration.

MAWS is primarily air sim, which is your bread and butter, but less useful in air RB.

@Stockholm_Blend
Napalm can’t frag pillboxes, howitzers, and AA with the same level of accuracy.
It should be 11.3 with its current load though.

1 Like
44

Ehh. I don’t prefer to hunt those things down because it is nothing but a suicide mission in which I need to rush down to the middle of a missile fight in the middle of a map.
And there will be plenty of F-4S and MiG-23ML drooling to shoot me down after throwing their napalm.

Of course, a top-rank match can’t be won by fragging pillboxes as long as it is nothing but fighter pvp heaven.
:|

Way too high risk but the same or lower rewards.

This is just my preference, though.

45

Forgot to mention, it still let GR.1 get beaten by rest of tonka in other TT.

I almost always saw WTD61 flys faster than my GR.1 when napalm weren’t meta.

2 Likes
46

9Ms don’t belong on a supersonic airframe at 11.7

You’re being very vague, the Tornado GR.1 may be supersonic but that’s where all the good traits end and that’s only if you can call it one - most vehicles at the same BR will out speed the Tornado GR.1. The GR.1 itself is indeed supersonic but it may as well be a MiG-25 as it can’t turn for sh*t, it might as well lose the ailerons since turning in it is a dream, a fallacy.

There’s also the Tornado at 12.3 with more CMs and better engines

You’re using a wrong as an example, the Tornado GR.4 itself shouldn’t be 12.3 making this argument weak, just because Gaijin messed up the BR of the GR.4 doesn’t mean the GR.1 should also receive the same treatment (and that’s if it ever gets the AIM-9Ms).

You can also look at the A-10C that also has 9Ms at 11.7, and that certainly isn’t equal to a Tornado with 9Ms

You mean the vehicle which gets double the amount of AIM-9Ms as a potential GR.1 with AIM-9Ms, significantly more countermeasures and MAWS? The A-10C is slow and the Tornado GR.1 can’t turn, one has 4x AIM-9Ms whilst the other only 2x. Additionally, one also has a HMS and the other simply doesn’t again as well - they’re both equally as good as one another.

I’d prefer 9Ms at that BR honestly, and the Mirages radar missiles aren’t the best

The Mirage F1C-200 doesn’t get the best radar missiles? Guess what, the Tornado GR.1 doesn’t get any whatsoever, Magic 2s are better in ARB and AIM-9Ms are better in GRB (and we’re talking about ARB here).

Then why is the 12.3 tornado with 9Ms 12.3? What about the A-10C, or even the Jh-7A with no IRCCM at 12.3

Another example of you using overtiered vehicles as an excuse to ovetier the Tornado GR.1 if it was to ever receive AIM-9Ms, go play the Tornado GR.4 in ARB and show me your results. If you honestly believe that the Tornado GR.4 is a equal to the F/A-18A then you need to honestly take a break from War Thunder and revaluate your stance on balancing.

2 Likes
47

As I said, it’s that low speed acceleration difference.

48

That is why we should’ve got an engine upgrade long ago.
:|

49

Upgrade? We should’ve gotten the Mk.103 engines from the very start - end of. Nations like Britain and China just don’t have a large enough community to cope and get stuff fixed like America cough cough F-15E.

1 Like
50

It would be great if we had Mk.103 at begin. But I meant
Better late than never. Right?

Just… Gaijin prefer ‘NEVER’ to minors like british.

2 Likes
51

It’s still only 4 9Ms on a stupidly slow airframe at 11.7. I’d much rather have 2 on a more capable airframe (even if it does mean losing MAWS and HMD. You severely underestimate how much the A-10s low speed handicaps it.

It highly depends on the plane and situation. Magics are better at close range, and on dogfighters, and 9Ms are better at longer ranges. You will not be getting close and slower if you are playing something like a tornado properly. I’d much rather have 9Ms on a tornado, than magic 2s, and I’d rather have magic 2s on something like an F-5, rather than 9Ms.

I just don’t want to be facing 9Ms regularly at 10.7/11.0. They are too good for that BR on an faster airframe.

If it receives 9Ms it must be at 12.0 in order to remain balanced. 11.7+9Ms+supersonic plane wouldn’t be balanced, especially since it would only be 0.3 higher than the tornado with just 9Ls. And it’s not like that can go down either.

Obviously I said that the F-18 was balanced at 12.3, surely I haven’t said the exact opposite previously…

China absolutely does, but there’s a language barrier, and Gaijin just doesn’t really care.

I’d also like to say that all 11.7 tornados should be 11.3 right now, including the Italian and German ones.

1 Like
52

I will quickly say this. Im really really on the fence whether the GR4 is 12.0 or 12.3 worthy.

Im currently placing it about 12.16. BOL imo just barely pushed it over the line. Its by far one the weakest 12.3s in the game currently, but the huge supply of CMs, All-aspect MAWS and great RWR is enough to keep you mostly safe.

I’ve done a few matches in ARB in it and fairly consistantly walked away with 1 base kill + 1 A2A kill and more than a few near second kills. People just under estimate it, completely. Between the new FM and the 9Ms people are still use to it being the DOA overladen bus we had for 18 months

With the right buffs like BOL overhaul, FnF Brimstones (purely thinking ARB/ASB ground pounding here) and other general tornado buffs like FM improvements, ECM and even the radar stuff. I think it can sit reasonably comfortably at 12.3. Though compression and ARB gamemode design are never going to be overly kind to it and short of lowering it to 11.0, its always going to be a challenging aircraft in ARB

Now whether the GR1 would be a strong 11.7 but still an 11.7 or a very weak 12.0 with 9M is honestly a question I dont think can ever be answered at this moment without trying it, and I just fear we’d regret it. So Id personally prefer the 11.3 BR with 9Ls for it, I think in the long run, it would just be far healthier for it.

Maybe in the future we could get an Op Granby Tornado Gr1 with 9Ms and JP233s :P

Edit: Quick case in point. Just did a quick match, 1x F-18 kill with 9M, 1x F-16 kill with guns and would have had a base kill if I didnt mess up the drop. Could have maybe come away with an F-4 gunkill if i didnt miss judge a slight hill and crash. So I think the GR4 is fine for now. GR1 though, needs buffs

Edit 2: Another match, 2x Aim-9M kills, 1x Mig-23 and 1x F-16, with 2x base kills with an RTB between. So yeah, its fine for now at 12.3, definetly needs some buffs, though nothing overally GR4 specific

1 Like