This thing needs to be 13.0
Not even all aspect PD radar
Horrible Flight model
Horrible acceleration
Just the fact that the PD radar is not all aspect, but a PD HEAD ON radar should be enough to make this flying brick 13.0
Thoughts?
5 Likes
Its a tough call… Its so badly nerfed that it probably should be lower, maybe even 13.0. But also maybe it would be fine at 13.3 if fixed. Its tenative if it could become OP at 13.0 and others would start asking for their aircraft to move down as well, like the ICE. I also cant properly comment beyond speculation as only finished grinding it yesterday and have yet to even start the stock grind for it.
With that in mind and my experience in the F3 (early). Id say this needs to be done first:
- Fix BOL. (its underperforming a LOT)
BOL “flares” should be a lot lot stronger, they are currently modeled as small flares with reduced burn time but should be roughly as good as large calibre flares but with reduced burn time. Gunjob has a report in for this:
Though a large issue is that BOL “flares” are not flares at all, but rather “chaff” that produces an IR signature and really needs to be modeled as such
Also its chaff are around 1/4 as effective as they should be, equal to standard calibre chaff with the wieght difference likely from a lighter plastic casing used for the BOL packets.
Flame has a report in for this:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/B8OvCzjZ7E91
- Phimat Pods
In addition to the BOL pods. the Tornado should be able to equip Phimat Pods. At least one in place of a sidewinder but could also be mounted in place of fuel tanks. each Phimat pod would add 210 chaff. Which would help greatly defending against ARH missiles
- Flight model
Its underperforming a lot when it comes to instanteous turn, but is overperforming in sustained turn. But considering it cannot beat anything in WVR combat that is above about 11.0. Id rather be able to notch effectively than rarely out turn something.
- Loadout
The Tornado F3 “late” could still be upgraded with Aim-120Cs, which might give it the edge it needs
I suspect this is the reason why they went with calling it the “late” and not the “AoP” which is what is modeled in-game minus the ASRAAM. There is still the “FSP” variant which used AIm-120C-5s
- Emergency combat thrust.
This is something the devs have said they “might” consider for the Tornados, and it is rather desperately needed. It is modeled on the Mig-21s to give them an edge and so I think it would only be fair for the Tornado to be given the same consideration.
- PHC (pilot hand control) / 2-Seater radar controls
PHC would give the F3 a limited form of HMS for IR missiles only, restricted to the boresight of the IR missile. A small buff but a buff nonetheless.
PHC or improvements to how 2-seater aircraft radar works could also be a big buff for the Tornado F3 as radar management takes up most of your time
- Restore Auto-ACM / make it optional
The F3s did briefly have auto-ACM but it was removed for “reasons” despite it being historically accurate. I miss this a LOT on the F3 “early” but I imagine I will miss it even more once I start spading the F3 Late. Being able to easily hard lock a target with the radar was awsesome, regardless of aspect.
8) Future upgrades not currently possible
There are several parts of the Tornado F3 that cannot be modeled currently, such as its towed decoys, the ECM effect of its radar (should be able to completely block the Su-27s radar by locking it with its own radar) and other capabilies like ASRAAM. The F3s even received RCS reducing paint later in life. There is room for the F3 Late to get gradual upgrades and improvements over the next year or 2, as and when things are added. Some of these should be considered soon rather than later, but are a long way down the road
Until some or all of these problems are fixed. It is too hard to properly place the F3 late. BOL and Phimat I think are a minimum before anything else is decided and would be a MASSIVE buff to so many other aircraft, inclduing the FA2 which I personally think is Over-BRed currently, but my stance is the same as it is for the F3. Too much is broken/nerfed to properly balance. But yes, I suspect if its current state remains the same. 13.0 might be unavoidable.
4 Likes
1- Does not matter as much for AIM-120s like it does SARHs. If you give an F-14A AIM-120s and AIM-9Ms it’d be the same capabilities as Tornado F3 Late.
2- Which primarily matters for time to climb, for which it’s within margin of error with F-14A, and F-4E/J series aircraft.
If it wasn’t BVR-boomzoom meta right now the energy retention performance would notably matter.
3-
To 900kph with combat loads, only internal fuel for BVR reasons.
Tornado F3: 46 seconds.
Viggen: 52 seconds.
F-14A: 53 seconds.
F-4E- 47 seconds.
F-14B- 44 seconds.
Mirage 20005F- 44 seconds.
Su-27- 40 seconds.
J-8F- 39 seconds.
F-16A- 38 seconds.
F-15A/C- 33/34 seconds.
Gripen- 39 seconds.
Yak-141 with short-takeoff- 31 seconds.
F-16C- 35 seconds.
So Tornado F3 is in the middle of the slower crowd for acceleration.
- actually is a mistake on part of OP because it does, though its HPRF not LPRF or MPRF which gaijin considers all-aspect PD radars. This was the reason given for the Tornado F3 to loose its historically accurate Auto-ACM mode, because unlike other aircraft that still have it, it uses HPRF.
This could be a useful buff for the Tornado F3 for rapidly locking and firing an AMRAAM. I know I do that in the FA2.
-
Tornado F3 could yet recieve its emergency combat thrust like the Mig-21s have, this would give it an edge, especially in a climb. But its ability to notch is where its FM is most felt and why I think it desperately needs its FM fixed and the placeholder model it has had since day 1, to finally be finished/replaced.
-
So its not only slower accelerating than those it faces at 13.0 (not sure why you have put aircraft like teh Viggen even on that list considering the F3 late will never see them). But Its also notably slower than a lot of aircraft like the mig-29, F-15 and Su-27. Even the Gripen is faster. Few things can the F3 outrun and when it does have notch to defend against an ARH, it is then forced to loose a lot of speed and is much slower to recover said speed, Again this could be fixed with modeling Emergency combat thrust, but it is unknown if the F3 will ever see the same buff the Mig-21s got.
No matter any change, as long as it has a PD HEAD ON only radar, imo it should be 13.0
I just use TWS 99% of the time and works fine in any aspect.
1 Like
Problem with this is the Gripen.
Gaijin should rework engine heat, so that the gripen cannot flare R-73/Magic-2 at point blank even with the nerfed BOL
2- Mig-21Bis lacks its emergency thrust currently as well, and is the only Mig-21 to have had such thrust IRL to my knowledge.
3- F-14B, Mirage 2000, and F-4F ICE.
I’m almost to Mig-29SMT to get its time to climb data.
But yeah, it’s too strong for 13.0.
1 Like
Ideally yes, would be a big buff for the Harriers as well. But nerfing the F3, FA2 and the others for the sake of nerfing the Gripen is just not fair.
If nothing else, there is no excuse for the chaff nerf.
1 Like
I haven’t tried it yet, but I have the F2. Close to F3, currently researching
The radar seems to be the same PD HEADON radar, just a bit improved
I mean BOL really needs to go back to where it was. It unfairly affects a lot of British aircraft to the point where they noticeably become less viable (as well as the F-14B, I might add)
The Flares do precisely not a lot, and the Chaff isn’t much better.
Getting back to the main poster, while I haven’t yet flown the F.3 late, it would appear to be in that weird spot that the “early” was in (too good to go down, too bad to stay/go up)
2 Likes
İİRC it was removed after endless F-4E user complaints
1 Like
Based upon this:
Community Bug Reporting System (read the dev answer)
Its still on the mig-21BIS at least and I somewhat assume its on all of them
I realised the other day, the only british rank 8 that doesnt rely upon BOL is the Tornado Gr1, though they are technically missing from it. :D
2 Likes
If such upgrades were to be added would you deem the tornado worthy of grinding out? I love the Tornado F.3s but don’t have Britain. So would it be worth it if it got ASRAAM, AIM-120C-5 and Towed Decoys/ ECM?
Well I agree.
Gaijin should just rework the core mechanics at this point, they seem to be severely outdated
You can’t even lock an F-5C that’s afterburning in rear aspect at 2.5 KM with 9J
The flares of BOL only seem to work on Gripen because of how little heat it produces.
And it works great Vs 9M type İRCCM as well, because 9M doesn’t care about heat, just the existence of flares is enough.
But again, it all comes down to the gripen.
İmagine the gripen, the best turning aircraft in the game (together with F-16), endlessly periodic flaring/chaffing, with ting engine heat, small RCS.
But I agree that BOL should be brought back to historical levels
If it got ASRAAM, Aim-120C5s and Towed decoys it would be fricking awesome and would easily be the strongest aircraft in game right now (assuming other aircraft did not get similar upgrades). Even if they did though, the ASRAAM are british only and they would totally change how the F3 fought.
But I doubt they’ll ever be added and if they were, it would be BR’ed increased into oblivion.
The F3 has potential, but is always going to struggling in the tiny arenas that are ARB
1 Like
Its BR would probably be 14.0 with the upgrades :/ maybe 14.3 cuz Britain tax
1 Like
I see 2 solutions
- Remove 2x BOL from the Gripen to reduce the number of CMs it has
or
- model the BOL on the Gripen differently to every other aircraft.
2 Likes