TOR M1 should be removed from the Chinese tree and replaced by a domestic option

As stated by the title - I think the TOR M1 being added to the Chinese tree was entirely done because it was easier for the developers to implement a 100% Russian vehicle rather than putting in a bit extra effort to add ONE OF THE MANY anti-air systems developed by China.

The TOR M1 has indeed been given to China in low numbers, which was then improved by the Chinese ground forces and designated as HQ-17. (The developers didn’t even bother adding the slightly different, upgraded Chinese TOR, the HQ-17 - they instead added the original Russian TOR.)

But I think it is sad and hurtful that the Chinese tree is being filled with Russian hand-me-downs instead of their own vehicles, DESPITE China having a much larger budget than Russia and one of the fastest developing ground forces in the world.

I think the TOR M1 should be taken out of the tree and put into the Russian tree, perhaps foldered with the Pantsir or the 2S6. People who’ve put any research or have bought the TOR should get to keep it, much like what happened to the Maus.

And, as China’s top tier SPAA - the Russian TOR can be replaced by many different vehicles, such as:

  • The HQ-17A, which is an actually Chinese implementation of the TOR launcher, using a Chinese domestic wheeled hull and Chinese domestic improved radar. But with a similar missile system:
Spoiler

HQ-17A SUGGESTION POST - https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/567010-hq-17a/ (appears to have been deleted)

This would be very similar to the TOR, but at least actually Chinese. As my biggest gripe with the TOR is that it simply does not belong in the Chinese tree - especially BECAUSE the Chinese tree has been done very dirty by Gaijin, with many low-effort copy-paste barely-different vehicles being added.

There are relatively few truly unique Chinese vehicles, and the tree is seen as a joke by most - a “copy-paste Russia”, which I believe is a huge misrepresentation of the incredible diversity of the Chinese modern ground forces that are packed to the brim with unique and interesting vehicles.

  • The next possible top tier SPAA addition would be the FK-2000, as a vehicle very similar to the Pantsir, but still unique and set apart by its powerful 30mm naval cannons:
Spoiler

FK-2000 SUGGESTION POST - FK-2000 - The Chinese ground based Kashtan

It would have a similar anti-air capability to the Pantsir (very similar missiles), but with the Chinese license-built AK-630 naval guns with devastating 30mm APFSDS rounds available - which would allow it to destroy tanks in a pinch. Overall a very powerful but not unbalanced vehicle, as it is still just a very large truck that’s easy to destroy.

  • The third Chinese SPAA that could fulfill its role at top tier would be the Type 625E, an anti-air system based on the Type 08 chassis (which is in the game in the form of the ZLT-11).
Spoiler

It has the same AK-630 naval cannon as the FK-2000, but with different missiles and a more agile chassis which would allow it to destroy tanks with a bit more poise. The missiles it fires are short-range FB-10s with a maximum range of 10km, so they would still be outranged by the best CAS at top tier - it would make up for this by being a mixed-role vehicle that can also destroy enemy tanks.

  • The fourth Chinese SPAA that I believe could perform at top tier is the SWS-2, another Type 08-based chassis with a familiar 35mm gun found on the Gepard/PGZ09 (with some Chinese improvements, mainly a doubled RPM which would give it the same firepower as the double cannons found on existing SPAA) and TY-90 missiles which ALSO already exist in-game on the Chinese Z-9W, Z-9WA, Z-19, Z-19E and Z-10 helicopters.
Spoiler

SWS-2 SUGGESTION POST - Norinco SWS-2 (missile&gun AA vehicle) - China - War Thunder - Official Forum

The SWS-2 is an export vehicle much like the VT-4A1 and many of its parts are already present in-game. It just brings them all together in what I believe would be a very fun package. The TY-90 missiles in-game are known to be fairly potent, but their range isn’t great and they can be flared, and the 35mm isn’t particularly capable at very high BRs - so this wouldn’t be a very strong anti-air.

But it does have AHEAD rounds available (which, if they were to be fixed in-game) that could give it a bit of an edge, and with APDS available for its 35mm - it’s also a very capable mixed-role IFV/SPAA mix. Not overpowered, but certainly fun to play and Chinese - which is the focus.

  • The fifth, and last in this list, SPAA that could replace the TOR is the new Yi-Tian GA58 (replacing the old WZ-551 based Yi-Tian, an anti air that should also be added, but isn’t top tier-worthy so it’s not in this list)
Spoiler

The GA58 is another Type 08 chassis SPAA, this time barely modified from the existing hull in-game (on the ZLT-11). This is a purely missile SPAA, firing what would appear to be similar missiles to the FK-2000 and the Pantsir. (The previous Yi-Tian used TY-90s). This would be a more conventional option similar to the Swedish ItO 90M with purely anti-air capability.

And that’s all of the SPAA that I personally think would be incredible domestic Chinese replacements for the Russian TOR M1 in the Chinese tree. Honorable mentions would go to the CS/SA5, CS/AA5, JRVG-1 and FK-1000, but I don’t think those SPAA are quite fit for top tier (but certainly would fit somewhere around 10.0-11.0).

I would love to hear your thoughts below.

Would you like to see the Russian TOR M1 be moved to the Russian tree, and removed from the Chinese tree?
  • Yes
  • No, keep it in both trees.
  • Other (leave a comment below)
0 voters
Which Chinese SPAA do you think should be added to replace the TOR?
  • HQ-17A
  • FK-2000
  • Type 625E
  • SWS-2
  • Yi-Tian II (GA58)
  • Other (leave a comment below)
  • None, the Russian TOR should stay as China’s top tier SPAA.
0 voters

I thank you for taking the time to read this post.

8 Likes

As long as there is enough info aviable to implement them properly (which, given the country of origin might be an issue), +1.

Unique domestic platforms, whenever aviable, should be added over imported stuff.

6 Likes

A lot of the info is available. It helps that China generally combines existing Western and Eastern technology.

The SWS-2, for example - everything the SWS-2 has is already in the game. The German 35mm, AHEAD shells, TY-90s, the hull. They could implement it extremely easily.

The Chinese 30mm rotary cannon used on the FK-2000 and Type 625E (and CS/SA5) is derived from the AK-630 naval gun. And all of its characteristics are known. China only made slight improvements to it and developed APFSDS ammunition, pictured here:

We already have 30mm APFSDS in the game, as well.
The FK-2000 also uses similar, or even identical missiles to the Pantsir.

The HQ-17A uses the same TOR missiles, but on a Chinese hull paired with a Chinese firing system and radar.

3 Likes

If the HQ-17A is just the same thing as the TOR-M1 but with a different chassis I think it should be swapped in and the TOR should go to Russia

3 Likes

I think this would be fair, as well. The HQ-17A does have a very advanced radar which is better than the one on the TOR so it would be slightly superior to the TOR. But overall would play in an identical fashion - I would just be happy to have something Chinese be the top tier for China.

At least somewhat Chinese. Instead of 100% Russian.

1 Like

Yep, looking at Wikipedia its just a slightly better TOR (15km range instead of 12km), which when compared to Pantsir is still several km short.

2 Likes

Yes, any of these would do well to replace the tor, but i see no reason to limit ourselves in this, more spaa is something I am always in favour of, and all of these would be prime candidates for at or near top tier, nothing says we can’t have them all in good time.

2 Likes

Of course, that would be my ideal. But I doubt Gaijin will be so generous…

1 Like

HQ-17 and Tor-M1 are different

2 Likes

From what I’ve seen, they look very, very similar.
Would you be able to pontificate on the differences?

1 Like

Different radars are quite very noticeable difference
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tor-1m1

2 Likes

I see, that’s what I was suspecting. Just like on the HQ-17A, the Chinese had updated the radar and internal systems. From the looks of it - this might be the same radar as on the HQ-17A?

Overall, I would certainly prefer the HQ-17A over a possible update to the TOR M1 and rebranding to “HQ-17” simply because the hull is still entirely Russian, while the HQ-17A is a domestic wheeled hull.

2 Likes

HQ-17 chassis it seems are different from original russian one

They look almost identical, though. I don’t think any Chinese player could derive satisfaction from such a thing - and it would continue the stigma of China being a copy of Russia. Which is the focus for me.

It is good to know that the HQ-17 is not exactly a TOR M1, though. I will update that line in my post.

2 Likes

I don’t hope gaijin remove Tor-M1 from china tech tree but drop BR to 11.3 in ground AB/ground RB/ground SB, and add HQ-17A at 11.7 BR in rank 8 after Tor-M1

I think it would be great if they at least updated it to an HQ-17 and renamed it to the HQ-17 if they were to keep it. The TOR M1 is reaaaally egregious in the Chinese tree because it is outright 100% Russian.

I personally have no idea why they added the TOR to the Chinese tree instead of the Russian tree to begin with.

2 Likes

I think they add Tor as counterpart to Tunguska as Tor was 16G with good engine burn time so better sustaining of overload and 2S6 with short burn 18G missiles, but with guns. Both of them were fixed to 42G and 32G much later when Pantsir already was in game.

1 Like

image
HQ-7 can be added as a replacement. It’s the chinese equivalent of Ito-90

2 Likes

I’ve also just realized that we already have the AK-630 cannon IN THE GAME on the Russian Coastal ship MPK Pr.12412. This means that if Gaijin wanted, they could easily add the Chinese SWS-2 and CS/AA5 SPAA with very little effort. And it’s the same weapon found on the Type 625E and FK-2000 SPAA as well.

The CS/AA5 uses the same HN-6 missile found on the PGZ04A and the same chassis as the ZTL-11 in-game and the same AK-630 gun as the Pr.12412 in-game. Every piece is there. I even think the radar is identical to the PGZ09.

i think that HQ17 is a localized improvement models of Tor(about radar), and the HQ17A improved more about missile, but its a long time after read the information of HQ17(A) so im not very sure

1 Like