中国社区 - 我需要你们的帮助!

你好,中国社区!

首先,非常抱歉我对你们语言的错误使用——我使用了Chat-GPT进行翻译。我不会说或写中文,我只会说英语和波兰语(我是波兰人)。

我想请求你们帮助,让中国的飞机在游戏中更加真实!我非常喜欢中国空军的发展方式——主要从苏联飞机入手,并将其改进到极限。我一直在寻找有关哈尔滨H-5的信息,以便对游戏中引擎名称错误进行报告(据我所知,中国使用的是VK-1A的国产版本,即沈阳黎明WP-5A),后部炮塔应该是图-16的设计,但安装了不同的炮(AM-23),还有一些其他的较为细微的差异(对《战争雷霆》游戏的现实性影响较小)。 我已经提交了关于引擎和后部炮塔的bug报告:
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/fDaHp1F7cxQ6
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/E7PcWG5hro42

然而,我真的缺乏原始资料。Gaijin(游戏公司)将用户、工厂或维修手册及原始手册视为原始资料(这些资料不能是机密!),将参考书、博物馆、传记、书籍、“专家”意见类的出版物视为次要资料,但需要不止一份这样的资料。

我相信中国有自己的专业书籍、杂志和其他出版物,然而对于不懂中文的人来说,甚至有翻译工具的帮助也很难找到相关信息。这就是我需要你们帮助的地方!我非常乐意了解更多关于中国历史军事航空工业的信息!

哈尔滨H-5只是需要修正的第一架飞机,我想说服Gaijin对其他飞机使用中国的命名方式(以“H”作为轰炸机的代号),但我除了以下这篇文章(用波兰语撰写,来自航空专家杂志)外,找不到任何西方的中文命名参考资料: Chińskie samoloty bombowe

我希望这些飞机的中国特定改进版本能被加入到游戏中,比如安装涡轮螺旋桨发动机的图-4、带有图-16/轰-6后炮塔的H-5。

谢谢你们的理解和帮助,再次为我的中文不好表示抱歉!

2 Likes

I maybe can’t help you,but I have a question.

China Tu-4 have “涡轮螺旋桨发动机” ?

sorry, my engilsh is really bad.

1 Like

是的,图-4在某个时候改装了伊夫琴科AI-20发动机,该发动机本质上是一种带有动力轴驱动螺旋桨的喷气发动机(如图所示)。这为原本属于二战时期的老式轰炸机提供了更大的动力,赋予其更高的速度和更好的飞行性能。这次我会提供英文文本的副本,因为Chat-GPT可能会有一些错误。

Tu-4 with turboprop

English

Yes, Tu-4 was refitted at some point with Ivchenko AI-20 engines, which are essentially a jet engine with a powershaft powering a propeller (as on the image). This gave more power to otherwise old world war two era bomber, giving it higher speed and better flight characteristics. I will this time provide copy of the english text, as Chat-GPT may make some mistakes.

There is content about the turboprop Tu-4 in the 《Chinese Aircraft Encyclopedia》, but the Tu-4 equipped with turboprop engines is a modified version for airborne early warning aircraft
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And the drone carrier version
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1 Like

the Tu-4 engine may not be the AI-20, but rather the WJ-6.

I found an image on baidu baike, which seems to be a modification based on publicly available serial numbers. (However, speculations cannot be considered as evidence, right?)

image

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this i use gpt to translate to english

Modification status of the People’s Air Force Tu-4 bombers

Based on various public sources, the modification status of the Tu-4 bombers can be summarized as follows. The serial numbers starting with “280” are the seven-digit serial numbers, and the numbers in parentheses are the “40xx” four-digit equipment numbers:

  1. 2806007 (4074): Electronic countermeasure reconnaissance aircraft. Engine nacelle modified, added one blue antenna cover on the fuselage belly, multiple blade antennas and small antennas added to the lower fuselage and both sides, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, the tail gun turret replaced with a white antenna cover, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  2. 2806008 (4005): Engine nacelle modified, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  3. 2806010 (4104): Electronic countermeasure reconnaissance aircraft. Engine nacelle modified, one small antenna cover added to each side of the nose, the tail gun turret replaced with a white antenna cover, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  4. 2806207 (4003): Electronic jamming aircraft. Engine nacelle modified, one small antenna cover added to each side of the nose, one possible antenna cover added in front of the fuselage bomb bay, two blade antennas added to both sides of the rear fuselage, the tail gun turret replaced with a white antenna cover, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  5. 2806208 (serial number pending): Engine nacelle modified, one blue antenna cover added to the fuselage belly, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  6. 2806210 (serial number pending): Engine nacelle modified, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  7. Serial number pending (4008): Electronic jamming aircraft. The exterior is painted with a similar color scheme to the H-6 bomber, with a white underside and silver upper side. The tail gun turret replaced with a white antenna cover, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  8. 2806301 (4001): Engine nacelle modified, two vertical stabilizer panels added to the tips of the horizontal tail wings, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  9. 2806501 (4114): Converted to “Kongjing-1” airborne early warning aircraft, currently preserved in the China Aviation Museum.

  10. 2806508 (4124): Engine nacelle modified, one blue antenna cover added to the fuselage belly, a two-stage ventral fin added to the rear fuselage, and all 23mm cannons removed.

  11. 225008 (4134): UAV mothership, currently preserved in the China Aviation Museum.

  12. Information pending.

you uploaded the tu4 is 4134, maybe can help you.

1 Like

这件事我一直没能完全弄清楚,大多数资料都提到有几架图-4进行了改装。这让我以为也有一个安装涡轮螺旋桨发动机的轰炸机版本。谢谢你帮我解惑!

That’s something that I could not clear completely, most sources stated that several Tu-4 had the conversion done. This made me think that there was also a bomber version with turboprop engines. Thank you for clearing this out!

确实如此,中国可能使用了国产发动机。关于这张图片,它只是我找到的第一张图片,仅用于演示目的。不过还是谢谢你的帮助!

English

This is true, China probably used domestic made engine. Regarding the image, it was a first one I found, it only served demonstration purpose. However thank you for help!

你是否有关于中国空军对图-4的命名惯例的信息?根据我上面链接的文章,它应该被称为H-4。

你是否有关于哈尔滨H-5的一些中文原始资料?我想首先处理H-5,因为我已经尝试找到除IL-28之外的其他来源。我已经针对IL-28的起落架展开时间提交了一个错误报告,并提供了原始资料(技术手册),如果有H-5炮塔、发动机命名(WP-5A,游戏中仍是VK-1)和座舱盖变化的原始资料,将会非常有帮助,以便将其与苏联IL-28区分开来。

English

Would you happen to have any information on the naming convention of Tu-4 in Chinese Air Forces? According to the article I have linked above, it should be called H-4.

Would you happen to have some Chinese primary sources on the Harbin H-5? I would like to first take care of the H-5, as I have triedto find sources in addition to the IL-28. I already made a bug report for the IL-28 undercarriage deployment time with a primary source (technical booklet), it would be beneficial if there were primary sources for the H-5 barbette, engine naming (WP-5A, as in game it is still VK-1) and the canopy changes, to differentiate it from soviet IL-28 in some way.

在我的国家——波兰——国防部曾经出版技术手册和其他类型的内部使用文献,但随着时间的推移,这些文献变得过时,并向公众开放。也许在中国情况也是一样的?我想这些书籍可以作为原始资料使用。

English

In my country - Poland - Ministry of Defence used to publish technical booklets and other types of texts for internal use, however with time, these became obsolete and available to general public. Maybe it is same in China? I suppose these books could be used as primary source.

Also, thank you for writing in english!

Only aircraft manufactured in China will be given Chinese names (e.g. J-11/SU-27, H5/IL-28,J-5/MIG-17)

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Unfortunately, the situation is very different in China. Due to the long-term use of outdated military equipment in the last century, the PLA’s confidentiality policies are particularly rigid and conservative. As far as I know, up until now, the authorities have not proactively released any type of technical manuals, nor have they officially stated that the parameters related to these technical manuals are no longer classified (even for technical manuals of the T-34-85 tank introduced from the Soviet Union from WWII).
However, you can still obtain information from 1. Public publications, 2. Semi-professional books, such as ‘The Complete Book of Chinese Aircraft,’ 3. Publicly available data on equipment export, like the exhibition manuals from Norinco over the years.

很遗憾的是,在中国,情况非常的不同。因为上世纪长期使用老旧军事装备的缘故,PLA的保密政策尤其的古板和保守。据我所知,到目前为止,官方并没有主动放出任何类型的技术手册,并正式声明这些技术手册相关的参数不再保密。(哪怕是自苏联引进的二战T3485坦克的技术手册)
然而,你依旧能够从1.公开刊物 2.半专业书籍,如《中国飞机全书》 3.军事外贸方面的公开资料:Norinco历年的展览手册中获得信息

Niestety, sytuacja w Chinach jest zupełnie inna. Ze względu na długotrwałe używanie przestarzałego sprzętu wojskowego w ubiegłym wieku, polityka poufności PLA jest szczególnie rygorystyczna i konserwatywna. Z tego, co mi wiadomo, do tej pory władze nie opublikowały żadnych typów podręczników technicznych ani oficjalnie nie oświadczyły, że parametry tych podręczników przestały być tajne (nawet w przypadku podręczników technicznych czołgu T-34-85, wprowadzonego z ZSRR podczas II wojny światowej).
Jednak nadal możesz uzyskać informacje z 1. Publikacji publicznych, 2. Półprofesjonalnych książek, takich jak ‘Kompletna Księga Chińskich Samolotów,’ 3. Publicznie dostępnych danych na temat handlu zagranicznego sprzętem wojskowym, takich jak katalogi wystawowe Norinco z różnych lat.

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这让一切都变得明朗了。我之前不知道中国对这些数据要求这么严格,老实说,我原本期望对旧设备的管理会更加宽松一点,也许不像西方国家那样,但也比俄罗斯要宽松一些。感谢你的澄清,我要明确的是,我不想鼓励任何人做违法的事情。

English

That makes everything clear. I did not know that China is so strict about such data, I was honestly expecting a more relaxed approach on old equipment, maybe not like western nations, but more similar to Russia. Thank you for clearing this out, to be clear, I do not want to encourage anyone to do anything illegal.

This is where things get tricky:
You can use this data because:

  1. These outdated equipment have long been retired or repurposed only for militia training
    2.Having been referenced in years of military reports or public publications
    3.For military equipment export purposes, offered manual to foreigner buyers.
    So, in reality, no one will hold you accountable for using the specifications of old equipment that has been sitting in tank graveyards or parks for half a centuries.
    However, the authorities have never officially announced that this data is no longer classified, nor have they proactively released the technical manuals.

这就是事情变得棘手的地方:
你可以使用这些数据,原因如下:

  1. 这些过时的设备早已退役,或仅用于民兵训练。
  2. 这些设备已经在多年的军事报告或公开出版物中被引用过。
  3. 为了军备出口,曾将这些设备的手册提供给外国买家。
    因此,实际上,没有人会追究你使用那些已经在坦克墓地或公园中放置了半个世纪的旧设备的规格参数的责任。
    然而,官方从未正式宣布这些数据不再属于机密,亦未主动公开技术手册。

Możesz używać tych danych, ponieważ:

  1. Te przestarzałe urządzenia od dawna zostały wycofane z użytku lub przeznaczone jedynie do szkolenia milicji.
  2. Były wielokrotnie cytowane w latach raportów wojskowych lub publikacji publicznych.
  3. W celu eksportu sprzętu wojskowego, udostępniono instrukcje obcokrajowym nabywcom.
    W rzeczywistości nikt nie pociągnie cię do odpowiedzialności za korzystanie ze specyfikacji starego sprzętu, który leży na cmentarzyskach czołgów lub w parkach od pół wieku.
    Jednak władze nigdy oficjalnie nie ogłosiły, że te dane przestały być tajne, ani nie opublikowały proaktywnie tych podręczników technicznych.
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所以最终情况类似于俄罗斯——对于过时设备的整体处理非常宽松,尽管这些信息从未正式公开或解密。我猜在中国,这些设备可能会受到外部使用的监控,因此技术数据非常有限。

我会寻找《中国航空全书》,也许它在某处有PDF格式的版本。到目前为止,我找到的最好的一本书是《中国航空:1951-2007年中国航空工业历史》。我可能会购买这两本书中的任何一本,只是希望中文版有英文版(目前只找到中文版本)。

English

So it is like Russia in the end - the overall approach towards outdated equipment is very relaxed, despite never be officially publicly released / declassified. I suppose in China it may be monitored for outside use, hence so little data technical data is available.

I will look for the “The Complete Book of Chinese Aircraft”, maybe it is available somehere in pdf format. So far best I found was “Chinese Aircraft: History of China’s Aviation Industry 1951-2007: China’s Aviation Industry Since 1951”. I might get either of these books anyway, just hope that Chinese one has english version (so far found only in Chinese).