The SAM-SPAA issue

To start off, no, this is not another CAS complaining thread. I greatly enjoy both playing SPAA and CAS of various types accross multiple BRs but I want to highlight some issues with them.

In this game, there are thousands of vehicles, all with their own strengths or advantages, however one type of such vehicles has been plagued with issues ever since its introduction. That class is missile-armed SPAA systems (aka SAM systems). These vehicles have surface to air missiles, from the FIM-92 to the 95Ya6 with sometimes a gun system to complement their kit. Most of these vehicles feature a search radar or IR system which offers them decent situational awarness and allows them to detect and engage targets from many kilometers away.

However, when matched against air vehicles of equal battle ratings, the match-ups are often quite unfair. If an aircraft commits to an attack run without having spotted an SPAA system, they will often be killed. However if an aircraft manages to spot or somehow evade the missile fired at them during the attack run, the SPAA instantly gains a massive disadvantage. While the aircraft can simply fly outside the SPAA’s range, the SPAA can often not hide due to lack of cover in and near the spawn areas and because of the very high danger of getting shot by an enemy tank if you move further away from it.

While at higher tiers with SACLOS SAM systems, it is possible to shoot down incoming munitions, even if you deplete an aircraft’s entire arsenal, they are able to safely return and land on their airfield while it is borderline impossible for the SPAA to reach a capture point to rearm (not to mention how long it takes to rearm an SPAA compared to an aircraft).

Moving back to the lower tier SAM systems that use IR guided missiles, the situation is completely different when facing helicopters. Due to how gaijin models helicopter heat signature, even starter helicopters can outrange most if not all IR guided missiles with the exception of the ones with Contrast Lock. In such cases, these SPAA systems often are unable to do anything to counter these helicopters, especially in maps where there is little to no cover within spawn areas.

While some systems like the Type 93 and Ozelot are able to sneak past enemies and get behind enemy lines so helicopters will not spot them, the rest are essentially helpless when facing a helicopter player that has even the most basic knowledge of how to play their vehicle.

This obviously causes some issues where very potent SPAA are often moved down in BR (or people complaining that X SPAA is underpowered), not because they are bad but because they will run out of ammunition quickly and die because of it (prime example is the Strela which is criminally undertiered).

What are the possible solutions to this though? For starters, the proposal by gaijin for constructable rearming points would greatly benefit a lot of high tier SPAA, offering them a chance to fight back against enemy aircraft and helicopters, requiring players to outsmart each other to actually win an engagement.

For the IR guided missile SPAA, a general remodel of the IR signature of helicopters would be a great start, taking into consideration the massive jet engine at the rear of the vehicle and the heat caused by friction of the air and the fuselage from the massive propeller constantly pushing air downwards.

TL;DR, SPAA CAN BE TOO GOOD BUT ALSO BAD AT THE SAME TIME BECAUSE OF HOW THEY ARE CURRENTLY IMPLEMENTED

I hope I put this in the correct category so it doesn’t get nuked

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Oh yeah and sidenote, instead of Gaijin fixing the motor of the Chaparral not being smokeless anymore (It should be), they lowered its BR. It’s almost like the smokeless motor was its only advantage and that it is just a worse stinger-slinger without an uncaged seeker or a search radar :)

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That would not be accurate. Engine is a turbo shaft engine which while operating on the same principle is quite different in some key parameters like speed and temperature of the exhaust gases.
Also some notice able heating from aerodynamic friction comes with much higher speeds then what can rotor blades reach.

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Isn’t that helicopter not moving very fast, or just taking off? Its attitude isn’t very drastic and its gear is down

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The AH-64 does not have retractable gear

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Still, it’s likely not going very fast

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FIM-92 Stinger is still missing it’s UV seeker feature, which basically functions as a photo contrast lock and allows targeting of cold targets and helicopters at longer ranges.

The bug report was “submitted as a suggestion” 3 months ago, but no news on this yet.

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Now it is just the same missile but for MONEY
Yet I’m wondering, how i even spade Israeli Chaparral…

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The G variant at least has stinger ECCM but it is still borderline useless since its a caged seeker… The funny thing is that you can uncage the seeker in testing mode irl… I just wish gaijin just makes the seeker uncaged like they removed its smokeless motor

For the missiles currently in game, I’m unaware of any that would lock onto the friction of the rotors.

But, all of them would offer atleast some all aspect missiles performance against helicopters, and greater range than WT gives them.

They’re both gas turbines that produce similar levels of heat and exhaust gas, it’s more of a question of how said gasses are used to develop power.

Secondly rotors turn very close to (in some cases they can exceed the speed of sound. There most certainly are some IR missiles/manpads that have ability to lock onto the friction of rotors.

Lastly that’s a photo from a TADS units display which while it is a thermal, is significantly different from the sensor in a IR weapon. Using one to to show what the other can or might see, is very difficult to compare because they work using different parts of the spectrum and have vastly different cues/algorithms.

Increase the playabale area behind spawn for SPAA to move around and reposition from obvious spawn locations that CAS often carpet bombs.

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Yep. Let SPAA reload in spawn areas or places other than cap points.

Give SPAA/AD units weapons that have parity or longer range than air units

Fix lock ranges, allow IRCCM to function correctly

Address BR gaps in SPAA/AD units that exist in virtually every tech tree except Russia

No. We all saw how the pantsir turned out :)

Exactly how it should

They are not, they may have simmilar ITT but exhaust gases speed/temp are on a different level. It it were the same it would be very bad TS engine.

Except that the air cools that blade to, so up to mach speed the cooling prety much is gretaer then heating so blade have more or less the environmental temperature.

An Apache can go up to 365 KPH.

In the picture it doesn’t seem to be going very fast, though, due to its attitude.

Thanks Stona!

just had a game withe the ozelot. It’s a joke with helicopters, can’t lock sh**. Had a helicopter hovering mid air in 3.3 km and was not able to lock it even after like a minute. The best thing was, i was able to look the incoming missile from the heli but not the heli itself. Nice one. After a minute of try he found me and clapped me and there is nothing i can do to fight the heli. The helicopter heat signature needs to be redesigned and is a joke. And this situation is every time i see a heli, i was able to lock a drone from 4 km away but a heli at 3.3? nope…

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