There’s no emotional want or need for the R-77 to be superior to the AMRAAM. I’m a die-hard pro-American. I just don’t accept that everything we build is the best thing in the world.
Again, regardless of how many were built the R-77 (izdeliye 170) was built in small numbers and likely used in service or testing somewhere. The MiG-29 in the Russian tech tree saw fewer than 100 examples built iirc, this didn’t stop Gaijin from putting it in the game. The Yak-141 as well… lol.
Do note that the R-77’s apparently overstated graph from Karpenko shows a reasonable 20km at very low altitudes. The 65km hot target isn’t surprising, and I doubt early AMRAAMs would compete with that.
In the first video I think I understand this… it looks like the following:
Spoiler
Both target and launch aircraft at similar airspeeds of ~1200 km/h?
Both target and launch aircraft at similar altitude of 10.6km?
I do not understand the hud of that aircraft well enough to understand what is going on… need more context for each launch and a closer look.
Spoiler
It seems the bottom right circle is missile time to target at any given time should it be launched? If that is the case it blinks to a maximum of 120s between launches and he launched at approx. 80s to target at 60km. This is interesting, I think we can ascertain the missiles average velocity from this.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/955829235493273680/1143354702688424097/Screenshot_20230821_202314_YouTube.jpg
It’s seen here that despite the plane already having a 10 degree climb, the R-77-1 missile still makes an aggressive loft climb.
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This is unexpected, I wonder what the reasoning for this is? I can’t imagine that is an efficient loft trajectory unless there is something we do not understand about the gridfins?
In regards to gridfins, I think that the Russians understand most R-77 launches will be at high speed so there isn’t much to be worried about when it comes to wave drag. Having high T/W aircrafts that can accelerate past Mach 1 easily might mean you do not have to worry about the cons of gridfins much.
Also, if i’m reading the HUD right, it indicates that that missile’s max range is ~70km, right? (at that alt and closure rate)
Yes the maximum range in that scenario is approximately that range it seems. We need more information on the R-77 to properly model this but I can totally make comparisons using the AIM-120A/B data that I have. I have enough data to recreate the AIM-120A in war thunder.
I just need to figure out the following information:
Velocity at launch for both launch aircraft and target?
Altitude for both launch aircraft and target?
What is the timer in the bottom right?
Launch range at the moment of launch?
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Ok, so here’s some math.
(I don’t see a closure rate indicator, so I will assume above.)
Launch speed: 1200kph
Target speed: 1200kph, direct head-on
Time to impact: 80s
Distance to target at launch: 60km
Over 80s time of flight, target will travel 26.66km
((1200kph / 60) / 60 = KPS * 80 = KM per 80s = 26.66)
So over 80 seconds, the missile will travel 33.34km
(60km - 26.66km = 33.34km)
33.34km over 80 seconds = an average speed of 0.41675 km per second
(33.34/80)
.41675km per second = 1500.3 kph
(.41675 * 60 * 60)
So an average speed of 1500.3 kph or about mach 1.5 at 10.6km
Hmm yeah that doesn’t really add up, some of these numbers must be wrong (or I’m shit at math that is very possible)
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On a sidenote, @MythicPi here are some better pictures of the improved R-77 with conventional tailfins showed off at MAKS 2021, perhaps the name is mis-stated as RVV-SD when it is actually R-77M?
https://twitter.com/MuxelAero/status/1417540055418159110?s=20
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398367636213334018/1143362100396306492/E6wdFizXIAEfVVN.png
Well, it is a public forum. I fully expect people to critique anything I say with the largest pinch of salt possible. It’s the only way we can maintain a higher level of accuracy on ascertaining the performances of things. On the flipside, if we’re not hardily playing devils’ advocate the skepticism will prevent any real progress as well.
hm well can anyone translate the russian components of this HUD? I can’t figure out what the text left of the range indicator means
It shows guaranteed launch range under those speeds and closure rate, etc. It also seems to show time to target for the missile. We know it has approx. 120s if that is the case of guidance time. The guaranteed range’ maximum for that speed and altitude is around 90km which suggests an absolute maximum range much higher than the stated 110km for RVV-SD. Imagine twice the launch speed and altitude it currently has, the maximum range would have to be significantly more than 110km.
Here’s my understanding of the HUD:
*Guaranteed is probably more like probable/recommended range, based on how much that indicator bounces around when it starts maneuvering
If these are all correct, I don’t think we can ascertain anything about average speed, since it doesn’t appear to show target altitude, speed, or heading
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We need more info / context lol, this is huge though if the missile can reach a 90km target from mach 1.1 and 10,000m. Means ROSOBORONEXPORT’s stated ranges are heavily understated, or the export models are heavily downgraded.
So the first one is a co-altitude and similar closing speed of 1200 km/h or mach ~1-1.1
This means it has a potential guaranteed launch range of 90km in these conditions, and on a 60km target a time to target of approx. 75-80s.
(Pinch of salt cuz it’s based off a youtube comment)
Will do this same test with my AIM-120 model to see how it stacks.
It’s RVV-AE mockup with 77M fins
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That explains the shape / length disparity between it and what was seen on the Su-57 in that blurry image.
Poster claims those are 3 at one fighter
I’m conflicted because I don’t know the HUD, There is what appears to be only 1 target marked, but as he fires the missiles off the numbers at the bottom disappear.
Actually, watching it I think those are weapons stations numbers coorelating to the R77-1s he’s firing
Assuming we’re anywhere near close to the parameters seen in the video, and using a very large pinch of salt for my AIM-120 model…
Assuming a battery life of 80s, the AIM-120A can hit a target in these conditions but it is a stretch. It hit at 60km launch after 79 seconds. The R-77-1 appears to have a higher loft trajectory and greater maximum range thanks to the additional guidance time (120s?). It also may have better time to target with a flatter trajectory but I think is accounting for a potentially maneuvering target.
So far I am only adjusting thrust to burn time and fuel weight to find an acceptable ISP for the engine in accordance with the efficiency of the HTPB propellant. My AIM-120 could still be a good ways off the real performance (in either a positive or negative way).