Yes, because the Leopard 1 was definitely equal in capabilities to things like the M47 (90 and 105), M48A1, and Cent 3. Not to mention so much worse than the M60 and AMX-30 that it needed to be 0.3 BR below them.
Also, you seem to have missed the fact that almost all the tanks above it moved up too. It’ll mostly face in 9.0 games what it would have faced in old 8.7. And it’s combination of top tier mobility and solid firepower means it’ll still do just fine.
M47-48 are notoriously just bad to average vehicles and an unfair comparison, Centurion Mk.3 has higher pen APDS, a reload that is like 1.5 seconds faster, smoke grenades, smoke shells AND is fully stabilized… how is that worse?
How is it an unfair comparision to compare two vehicles at the same BR? That’s how vehicles are balanced in game, two vehicles that share a BR are supposed to be equally capable at that BR. If one vehicle is more capable than another, it’s supposed to be at a higher BR to balance that out.
And you’ve clearly not got a ton of experience with the Cents. The stabilization is their only advantage. Their firepower is very lackluster, the APDS has pitiful postpen damage and shatters at the drop of a hat. Not to mention the new APDS which means their higher pen APDS is effectively much worse due to the awful performance against angles. Their mobility is terrible, practically everything at the BR including some heavies are faster than they are, which hampers their potential to position or flank. And their armor is very unreliable, only low performance APHE can’t just lolpen right through it. If you’re holding up smoke grenades and smoke shells as an advantages over the Leopard, that says a lot.
How is it an unfair comparision to compare two vehicles at the same BR? That’s how vehicles are balanced in game, two vehicles that share a BR are supposed to be equally capable at that BR. If one vehicle is more capable than another, it’s supposed to be at a higher BR to balance that out.
Because it’s rarely ever like that, BR compression for one pushes a lot of these vehicles together, and second there are rules for features that cannot go below a certain BR.
I’m sure we both can think of dozens of vehicles at the same BR as something else but not at all equals.
A stabilizer is already a massive performance advantage, having mobility is nice but it’s not a night and day difference, it just has lacking top speed that usually doesn’t matter, the smokes are a bonus on top of the other features it has, and APDS having pitiful post pen isn’t any different on the Leopard, unreliable armor is better than no armor.
If you want to pretend that is not an advantage that’s one thing, but to pretend it’s not even on par with a Leo that’s just silly.
We both can, and that is a problem, not something to just brush off. And we aren’t talking about a small difference in ability, like how the Caern is better than the Cent 3, but not enough for a BR difference. We’re talking about a sizable difference in ability which would be easily worth a BR difference. If the AMX-30 can be higher than the tanks I listed, the Leopard can be. I’d trade the nerfed 20mm and smokes for a better turret and APDS easy. At the very least that’s infinitely more comparable than the M47 105 is.
If you honestly don’t think there is a night and day difference between the Leopard’s mobility and the Centurion, I can’t help you. Nor if you think there’s no difference between 20 pounder APDS and 105mm APDS.
The mobility on the Leopard is nice, but I don’t think increased mobility is worth the BR increase opposed to having a stabilizer, you’ll win every single engagement 100% of the time against a Leopard because it cannot shoot on the move, doesn’t matter if it does 20 or 200 km/h, you might be stuck at 30 km/h or whatever but you can point and click on anything, and with the increased reload I don’t see how you think these things aren’t even equals.
The other problem is is like low tier 4.0 with BR decompression, because if you aren’t playing russia you might as well not.
Imagine fighting nothing but hordes of KV’s that you cant pen or fight.
So, genuninely, the idea that a Leopard can use it’s mobility to get into a prime shooting position and use it’s better gun, better zoom, and rangefinder to hit the Cent while it’s still trundling into battle is a new concept?
The stabilizer advantage only comes into play if both tanks are moving when they see each other. Which if the Leopard is playing anywhere near intelligently, isn’t a factor. The Leopard’s best in class mobility means it’s going to be set up in a good sightline long before the Cent comes into view. At which point, the stabilizer doesn’t matter, because unless the Cent is literally staring at the peice of cover the Leopard is using, it can drive out, stabilize quickly, fire, and pull back, all long before a Cent can react. Even on urban maps, a Leo showing up somewhere the Cent isn’t expecting can defeat the Cent before it can turn it’s turret and get a shot off.
And that’s not even considering the firepower disparity. Which even the game thinks is a 0.3 BR difference, as seen comparing the Mk 3 to the Mk 10. Plus HEAT-FS for a higher velocity chemical round against overpressurable things. And a rangefinder. And you think a slightly faster reload balances that out?
So, genuninely, the idea that a Leopard can use it’s mobility to get into a prime shooting position and use it’s better gun, better zoom, and rangefinder to hit the Cent while it’s still trundling into battle is a new concept?
Because every single map just has those positions and that’s relevant throughout entire games?
Better gun how?
Zoom just makes it worse, completely throws you off in CQC environments and long range distancing, the rangefinder isn’t laser either.
Maps generally aren’t that big that sniping is what the playstyle is.
Stabilizer is always in play, it means you are always able to return fire, if it’s a parked Leo you also don’t have to stop.
I’m not going to sit here and argue in circles about how going fast is somehow the most important feature in the game.
So the M18 needs to go down then right? Worst stabilisation of a gun and only has speed which is NOT an advantage. Well, by that logic you have suddenly altered.
(No I do not think M18 needs to go down, but that is why a certain nation screamed for it to go up which we now have a Panther gun at 5.0…).
M18 just needs to get an actual damage model, but 10 years in and Gaijin still fails to balance out no armor best armor meta.
But you talked past speed having its advantages. I use AP mostly so M18 is just as hit and miss as any tank. You just need to aim better when you realise the gaps in the model (once shot a 2.7 puma only to die to it as the round travelled from front to back and killed a medium behind it, me thinking my KV took out the scout).
The M18 argument was speed, not no armour best armour. Especially since we have had multiple systems come and go that tried to combat this (hull break and various over pressure systems).
So speed is or isn’t important with non-stabilised (or especially wonky) vehicles?
Having to shoot better as a unique requirement for a light armored vehicle still just means they have an advantage and players need to compensate for it.
Obviously speed has it’s advantages, didn’t say it did not, I’m saying speed isn’t more important than a number of other features like a stabilizer + armor + smoke + reload speed.
If I could get a fully stabilized Leopard with 1.5 second faster reload speed at the expensive of some of it’s speed I’d go for that.
M18 isn’t just speed, it has the same gun as the M4A3 at the same BR and lower than the T20, it’s not put 0.3 or 0.7 above them because it goes fast.
No, most AP throwers before 8.0.l have exactly that and sometimes much lower speeds.
Yeah, I thought you were disregarding speed in the same situation. Armor at BR for even the heavies is not great at all, the stab is less important when you are limited by a slow speed. If a leo is in a position early then the stab/armour/smoke does not counter the speed advantage. Give them a whirl (7.7s now) and see how they perform. And what is reload when the APDS is questionable? Not as bad as when they were first mucked over but still frustrating.
Except that is exactly why people wanted it moved up during the Allied/Axis MM times (which no longer exist in RBGF). Exactly that reason.
It’s not about AP, it’s about armor not triggering HE filler and tanks being modeled as an empty void, if you use AP on the M18 that’s just questionable I guess.
Leo is 8.0, not 7.7 and also relies on the same unreliable APDS, it can use other shells but they’re not reliable, and Gaijins obsession with fences at every possible opportunity and singular leaves and grains of sand blowing in the wind triggering them doesn’t help, not to mention all the broken hitboxes and now it fights a lot of ERA, if APDS is questionable, then so is it for the Leo.
Early game it definitely can use it’s mobility on some maps, but both sides are going to have speedy vehicles now.
Except that is exactly why people wanted it moved up during the Allied/Axis MM times
Because it wasn’t just the speed, it was not having a counter, Germany was crouching along with Tigers and Panthers slugging it out and then just get flanked by M18s, and when you’d complain they told you to flank back, using a Tiger to counter an M18 apparently.
Even to this day there is no proper counter to it, the 234/4 was not put into the tree, the Ru251 was not put into the tree, your best option is like a 3.3 Puma to counter an M18.
Especially bad because heavy tanks had the highest spawn cost despite still getting on shot, and then respawning in another heavy had a massive penalty, whilst US could spawn heavy, mediums and light, Germany just couldn’t spawn in because they had more heavies with huge SP costs.
Not everyone has APHE? Yes, the M18 was not moved to 5.7 due to its armour, it was the mobility to ambush and get out of situations rapidly.
It is very hard to take that seriously. HEAT-FS is supposedly a god round at 5.0… hmm.
Such as? There are a lot that aren’t and MM is very open now? I know UK is a limited example but where exactly do they come in during 8.0/7.7??
Because of its speed and so positioning, yes.
Which worked… and still does! But all the Tigers I meet face me square (Heavy 6). A few Tigers flanking is ruddy scarey!
M18s are not the hassle they appeared to be. But yes, event/premium are not fillers.
They moved up a LONG time after that was an issue. The SP overhaul was relativekly early days and a different game. Now its more yolo to TT!
Not everyone has APHE? Yes, the M18 was not moved to 5.7 due to its armour, it was the mobility to ambush and get out of situations rapidly.
But the M18 does lol, so why are you using AP?
It is very hard to take that seriously. HEAT-FS is supposedly a god round at 5.0… hmm.
According to who? And I doubt you find ERA at 5.0 anyways.
Such as? There are a lot that aren’t and MM is very open now? I know UK is a limited example but where exactly do they come in during 8.0/7.7??
UK has the Eland, Rooikat, Ratel I guess, Warrior isn’t slow I think.
Because of its speed and so positioning, yes.
Speed and positioning compared to an enemy that didn’t have it, the M18 wouldn’t be a problem as much if there was an actual counter to it.
M18s are not the hassle they appeared to be. But yes, event/premium are not fillers.
Not as much anymore, but they were.
They moved up a LONG time after that was an issue. The SP overhaul was relativekly early days and a different game. Now its more yolo to TT!
The SP changes weren’t that long ago.
We were talking about attacking the M18.
The old forum thread of PT-76 and Tiger I. All the complaints of vehicles with HEAT and HEAT-FS in early BRs (larger calibre of course, not PzIVs). And there isn’t as much ERA 7.7/8.0 below.
Rooi and Warrior are 8.3, Ratel is a bus, Eland yes (only has FS, but its a scout so makes do). They are all light tanks however, we are looking at the Leo.
It is not exactly the same situation of speed advantage. And M18s are/were counterable. Regardless speed can provide superior positioning.
2018, maybe 2017? It changed in my early days of RBGF as I came from AB air and ground (I am guessing here of course and can’t recall exactly when).
The old forum thread of PT-76 and Tiger I. All the complaints of vehicles with HEAT and HEAT-FS in early BRs
PT-76 was added in like 2015, also heatfs was cheatfs back then, suddenly completely destroying the armor meta that still existed with a new shell and a post WW2 vehicle wasn’t going to sit well with people.
Rooi and Warrior are 8.3, Ratel is a bus, Eland yes (only has FS, but its a scout so makes do). They are all light tanks however, we are looking at the Leo.
8.3 is well within range of the Leopard, chances of a 7.0 game are low as well with all the bulk being 8-9 now. Don’t see why they cannot be a light tank, there is no restrictions on using them.
2018, maybe 2017? It changed in my early days of RBGF as I came from AB air and ground (I am guessing here of course and can’t recall exactly when).
Different changes, but for heavies being penalized was like '21.
Meanwhile the leopard A1A1 L/44 got upped to 9.3 so it gets to fight M1 abrams. Meanwhile the XM-1 Chrysler is at 9.0 and can fight T-54s