I was referring to ARH missles on current modern SAM systems, We were not actively talking about western SACLOS missles. I know there is a desparity with current western SACLOS missles but comparing the older ones to a modern one of the Pantsirs (which is what happened earlier) didn’t make much sense to begin with so that dropped. The last time I mentioned the western SACLOS missles was in regards to using the radar menu to let them automatically guide. Metaltank was telling me about the SkySabre and IRIST. If we mentioned western SACLOS missles at any time, then let me know. Maybe I didn’t realize or didn’t address it.
You’re asking for parity on something we weren’t actively addressing, but alright. (based on the past most recent convo)
Yes the missle beats everyone out of the water, but you have the games design to blame for that. For such short encounters, of course this missle is going to be the most effecient. What we should be addressing is the games core design and how it needs to change to allow for all modern equipment to be represented properly. In the games current state, most maps just favor the Russian SHORADS.
The Humvee based SAM isn’t a bad pick ethier given it’s medium-to short range capibility (which is what most of these maps give us). It just wasn’t designed to be intercepting munitions.
I have played the Pantsir since introduction and this literally never happened to me until GBU-39s were introduced. When the Pantsir was added to the game some of the best munitions available were TV guided or Laser guided.
The funny thing is, I remember distinctly how back in the day Russia was still dominating CAS because for one the Kamov-50/52 spam was still a thing and they had the MiG-27K which remained for a very long time the best CAS jet in the game with the access to an integrated targeting sight + LGBs (back then that was the CAS meta). TV seekers were pretty damn awful before the somewhat recent contrast improvements, you couldn’t see a damn thing with those monochrome screens. Which is why it was pretty damn controversial for Russia to be the one to get this insane SAM platform out of everyone else.
Of course history repeated with the SM-SV, as recently Russia has been the dominant CAS spammer in top tier and yet again they just add an even better Pantsir.
Guess you never got the dose of dumb bomb spam, but I agree with you on most of this.
Hell I remember in Air RB those Migs giving me a run for my money in my F-5, it was brutal.
I wouldn’t say so in this instance, since gaijin late 2024 said “the best sam in the game” (The Pantsir) was not able to keep up with the major advancments CAS got during that period and it wasn’t a far fetched statement. Which also meant nobody else was able to keep up with that ethier. That sentence alone should of hinted they were going to drop a new Pantsir variant sooner or later, and there was a whole forum dedicated to that.
But arguing and debating about all this won’t change anything as I keep saying time and time again. I wish more people would advocate for core game design changes rather than be stuck about capibilities of current or past vehicles as those adjustments aren’t going to make much of a difference long-term.
Like you can’t tell me we’re going to go into electronic warfare on these small sized maps since the )closer you are to target the more ineffective it becomes ) and pushing for more and more advanced warfare that people keep saying is “skilless” not realizing that all these advancments are meant to make everything easier, not harder–yet Still want it
While game design is the major fault here, the issue when it comes to Russian AA vs everyone else is that they don’t have any downsides or force any kind of choice.
The 30MM cannons and direct aim launchers means that it can deal with aircraft that are up close, the speed on the 95Ya6M means that it can deal with aircraft at range, the TKBs means that it can easily deal with munitions (especially with 4DL auto-tracking), the Tunguska chassis means that it’s very mobile, it can fire on the move, and it gets smoke launchers (something no other top tier SPAA gets) to fend off incoming missiles that you don’t shoot down, and this is all in a single vehicle, no need to manage launchers and radars. One HUGE advantage as well, in comparison to other top tier AA, is that you can fire without a lock. You can take advantage of this by launching a missile towards the enemy air spawn to be on top of someone spawning in before they can even react.
Every other nation has to make choices on what they can engage, and this choice is even more important because all the other SPAA barely have enough missiles ready to go to engage a single target and their munitions; and none of them get the choice to have protection from other ground vehicles
Yes CAS has almost always had the upper edge in this game, but outside of the SMSV, the only time there was really an ‘effective’ SPAA at top tier was the original Pantsir and then the IRIS-T (which was then quickly met with DIRCM FNF Helis).
I wouldn’t say so in this instance, since gaijin late 2024 said “the best sam in the game” (The Pantsir) was not able to keep up with the major advancments CAS got during that period and it wasn’t a far fetched statement. Which also meant nobody else was able to keep up with that ethier. That sentence alone should of hinted they were going to drop a new Pantsir variant sooner or later, and there was a whole forum dedicated to that.
The original Pantsir has never had issues against existing CAS. It has always been able to swat MAVs down, glide bombs can be avoided by just driving a couple meters away from spawn, the 95Ya6 still remains one of the fastest missiles in the game to deal with anything sitting at range.
(I agree with most of what you said here, this I just want to tack on)
I don’t quite remember when ammo boxes were added, but before ammo boxes. 1 or 2 interactions would leave you dry and you’re forced to go to a cap that 9 times out of 10 aren’t protected and that’s where it quickly began to fall short if you’re facing a persistent pilot.
After the ammo boxes were added, I’d say it’s effeciency went up greatly, but that thing against FNF helis was a waste of time (or helis that saturated you and you had to choose between killing the heli or nuking the incoming agms), since they just hung around the helipad most times anyways. But I mean according to Gaijin, it had shortcomings for them to give everyone multi-vehicle SAMS. Not that the BUK was even good to begin with.
Ultimately I would want bigger maps with better design logic, multi-vehicle SAM systems are at particular disadvantage when the map is so small that they can’t hide their vehicles from neither aircraft or tanks.
Gameplay in WT has been at a still point since the game started, nearly nothing has changed it’s the same maps with the same objectives and nobody seems to notice the fact that the game literally encourages spawn killing, it is implied by the map sizes and the tiny spawn protection areas.
Well I have learned that it is unfortunately part of the course of this game to see things introduced without concern for balance. In this topic we tackle the subject of nation bias with the Pantsir. Is it actually Russian bias? I tend to think Gaijin is more attracted to money, I guess Russia just happens to be their biggest cashcow.
Advanced mechanics will be introduced eventually. As of now, from what I understand, your concern about MP being removed from ARH SAMs is about the eventual counters this change would imply, but to that my response is that we should worry about what is broken as of now. I think it would be genuinely a good change to see ARH SAMs become effective against everything even if it’s only for some time, as to me it is painfully obvious that the Pantsir disparity is causing severe issues nation-wise, it is unfair that other nations are forced to mix their AA roster and depend on each other, while Russian players can simply spawn in their Pantsir and deal with everything on their own without any crippling vulnerability.
This is true. I also think that one of the glaring issues was that CAP is so expensive comparatively at top tier.
Enough points for Fox 3’s to harass CAS jets was enough to buy effective CAS missiles and bombs.
If you don’t have enough points for fox 3’s you are fighting CAS with fox 3’s and also over their AA cover.
It’s ROUGH as a cap player now after the BUK/IRIST patch. There used to be good 1v1 dogfights unlike ARB. The SMSV just makes it so much worse.
The fact that it only lost 1.73 Mach at 36 km against a jet at that distance is questionable. It either has 0 drag when turning, or this thing is made out of Stalinium. Which then begs the question, why is it only rated to 40 km if it can go way past that? It could easily reach 70 km or more, and realistically 50 km, since the radar could continue to guide it at that distance. It just seems that it is overperforming bigly. The dart does not have a sustainer engine in it, just a booster.
Even without ammo boxes, the original Pantsir still had the most amount of missiles AND all of them were ready to fire at once on top of being one of the 2 top tier SPAA at the time with guns as well (and don’t forget, the ADATS was originally classified as a tank destroyer and had an increased SP cost). It also had the best radar with the ability to have 4DL targets at once, giving it the option to engage munitions with a drastically easier capability.
Given that the most FNF ordinance you could see from a single jet at the time was 6xMavs, you could still engage 2 sets of Mavs before running out, but you still have 4x30MMs that can still kill aircraft and chew through tanks (which again, only the ADATS had a similar option).
While it’s obviously less effective now due to FNF helis, so is every other SPAA from the same timeframe. Outside of the gun SPAA like the Oto and LVKV (which trade off a drastic amount of range to have a better time engaging close range targets), the Pantsir S1 still remains top dog at defending against helis compared to what the other nations had - especially since you can DL the first missile at the heli and then continue going for munitions while all the other SPAA truly did have to choose what to go for.
The bottom line is that Russian AA has generally ruled supreme over the years, especially with the inclusion of FNF munitions and the SMSV is just another step up in comparison. Given that it also sits with the same nation that has the most dominate CAS options, it just becomes that much better. One other small advantage it has over all the other top tier AA - if the enemy team doesn’t end up spawning any CAS, the SMSV can still be active in the game.
Which tells me they are going to add certain vehicles and mechanics regardless, because obviously they have to keep money flowing somehow and they aren’t going to stifle content like for the reasons some people may list here
The type 625 is pretty good at intercepting ammunitions, only issue is they decided to unload everything on it then it gets overwhelmed quickly due to low ammo count.
I am not an SPAA expert, so far I hadn’t find anything aside of Pantsirs this good at intercepting ammunitions. Hadn’t really played the IRST/NASAMS/BUK so I don’t know if they can do better.
Are you refrencing a video or something I said related to 1.73 Mach at 36km? I thought I was following but I’m not sure what you’re referring too unless you’re just talking about flat values.
You’d have to do some research on the missle. From what I’ve seen, it uses a more powerful booster stage that allows this. I wouldn’t doubt the missle capibitlities right off the bat since it’s purpose is to intercept hypersonic munitions. I’m not sure if it’s set to self-destruct at 40kms, as that could be the reason for the cap. I mean there’s nothing stopping the 10km missles on other SPAA to keep on going, as far as I know they all outright self-destruct once they hit max range
BUK wasn’t designed for that so it’s a lose, lose situation in that regard. CS/Sa5 was a piece of doggone s* when it first released. Not sure if they fixed it’s missle since then, but it seems like they have.
The missiles still sucks, the apache simply dodge that shit without effort, I was destroying the ammunition using only the 30mm AHEAD lol if it was Pantsir sm the apache will get dropped first then has all its ammunition deleted 5 seconds later.
I don’t play ground RB because of the CAS ordeal and because of how much it it favours russian ground-cas-spaa combo. The russian bias is blatant and has been for a long time.
In Air RB things are more balanced but not perfect.
I main 8 nations except italy and sweden, russian/soviet tree is mostly quite good and in some places the bias is VERY real.
There are more nations with a few OP vehicles here and there, even in israel or great britain, but soviet tree is one of the strongest for a reason, where double standards commonly happen to favour it.
The penetration (if the Starstreak is the standard for hollow pre-fragmented darts at high speed) is also overperforming significantly. (Or Starstreak is underperforming significantly)
For the time being you can choose to only spawn when the matchmaking team you up with ru lol it’s bearable when you have 8 nations to crew lock. When I play NATO’s/Israel I has been LMUR/KH-38’d to fark like I was there to become a target practice for CAS degenerates. The ones that pissed me off the most is those heli sitting on helipad the entire match.
