So what you’re telling me is that for the foreseeable future the Pantsir will be (and still is) the most versatile SPAA in War Thunder, and then they decided to add an even better Pantsir that can intercept way more munitions, run away into cover more easily, smoke up when there are too many IR / SAL missiles, and guns to shoot down jets that try using their guns.
But that’s not the reason.
I’m demanding the Pantsir to be uptiered because it’s by no means a 12.0 vehicle – not because the Spyder is over-BR’d.
Tell me why the Pantsir should be the SAME BR as the ITO 90 and I’ll change my mind.
So an 11.3 CAS aircraft finding a 12.0 SPAA difficult makes sense, I agree.
But even 12.0 CAS aircraft like the F-16s and Gripen As don’t struggle against things like the ITO, but they do with the Pantsir. The Pantsir is much much more difficult.
Why is it that top squadrons playing Squadron Battles almost always choose either the Pantsir, IRIST, or Mamba? (Hell, I’d say majority of the time it’s the Pantsir)
Do you want to 1v1 again. I’ve shown you that the Pantsir is underestimated because barely anyone knows how to use it properly.
That’s the flaw of CAS and BRs.
In uptiers I just don’t spawn CAS irrelevant of BR cause the SPAA in full uptiers are balanced for the CAS of that BR, not the CAS I might have in my lineup.
If I’m playing 7.7 I’m not spawning CAS in an 8.7 match.
If I’m playing 12.0 I’m not spawning CAS in a 12.7+ match.
Squadron battles aren’t the equivalent of multi-spawn game modes, and they pick weird vehicles in general.
Squadron battles were picking T-80BVM over Strf 122Bs for no reason and still succeeding.
Squadron battles also let you first spawn CAS like simulator, and it’s always 8v8.
The tactics of squadron battles will always be different.
Mid or Lower Squadrons, sure, but Top Squadrons only run META. They only play the Strv 122s, Leopard 2A7s, Abrams, and TKX / Type 10.
Sure but Squadron battles show you an insight on what works and what is versatile.
The Pantsir works very well against helis, can help against aircraft, and intercept munitions.
IRIST can only kill planes and munitions (though that’s unreliable).
Mamba can only kill planes and munitions too.
Those two SPAA systems are very good at what they do but they aren’t nearly as versatile as the Pantsir, hence why Top Squadrons still use it.
At 12.0 Squadron Battles the Pantsir is played exclusively… maybe the CS/SA5 on some occasions.
Why would they play the ITO over the Pantsir?
Squadron battles shows us what works in an 8v8 no-respawn environment where everyone is bringing [for the most part] identical-BR’d equipment.
Also I’m glad the top squadrons stopped being silly about T-series tanks.
But you talk about 16v16 multi-spawn game mode where everyone can theoretically get to 5 spawns or more, and the tactics change to endurance-focused.
It’s why the new SPAA is looking to be at 12.7 despite its most notable advantage over previous Pantsir is the anti-munition capability.
Its anti-helicopter capability doesn’t really change, though I do find the 40km Starstreaks funny. That might impact squadron battles where someone brings Ka-52 into the 12.7 squadron battles bracket [if such a bracket exists] for some reason.
Its anti-plane capabilities definitely doesn’t change. Same weaknesses of the standard missiles, and the 40km Starstreaks I feel will only make contact with aircraft that let it.
That’s true but at top tier pretty much everyone has the same BR’d equipment.
I agree, you need more munitions and (possibly) fire-and-forget if you’re being saturated by a lot of planes. The new Pantsir’s 16x anti-munition can help with that though. I’m not saying the 12.0 Pantsir should be 12.7 or 13.0. But it should definitely be higher than the ITO. Again, let me know why you’d choose the ITO over the Pantsir.
That’s huge because now you don’t have to waste your anti-air missiles for munitions, and you have a lot more of them.
The smoke also helps with survivability, and so does the mobility.
They can also help in regular matches too. They’re faster so ballooning helis have even less chance to react.
It may not kill planes as easily as the IRIST or MAMBA but a competent Pantsir player with access to good mobility, smoke grenades, gun depression, and tons of anti-munition missiles will definitely not die.
I agree, in-fact the ITO-90M should be 11.3 or 11.7 in ground RB.
Because the primary things ITO-90M counters are slower GBU CAS, and even slower AGM CAS, which are predominantly at 11.0 - 11.7.
That’s fair. I’d say 11.7 would be fine since the Flarakrad is a lot worse since it has to reload every two missiles, though the smoke grenades are nice.
That being said, Pantsir is a lot better in multiple different aspects than the ITO. I’m not sure if a 0.3 BR difference is reasonable.
The thing I ask myself is “What do these things hard counter if both players are skilled?”
Pantsir hard-counters slower AGM planes, and decent ambush bombing GBU CAS.
So 12.0 makes sense. That is where those aircraft are.
They moved up the MAX BR to 13.0 so I don’t see why not.
It has a great targeting pod, up to 4x Mavericks, great maneuverability, a great multipurpose gun, good / great number of countermeasures (depending on how many mavericks / GBUs you take), and 2x Aim-9Ms for any potential air-to-air encounters.
majority of maps don’t support max ranges of missiles
75g seems low I guess lol
You do realize that it has a time based fuze? It doesn’t rely on a direct hit.
ARH cannot hit low flying targets reliably
You do realize that the CLAWS is completely useless against helicopters where as the new pantsir seems to be somewhat decent. I rather have a spaa that decent at taking out fixed wing threats and excellent at taking out helis.
They shouldn’t.
ItO90 could go down to 11.7 though.
If CAS can be a first spawn there then I’d say those latter two will take a bit longer to properly setup, as you have three vehicles to move and position instead of one. Would you always have time for that ?
You still trade 4 for 1, so you’re wasting them in a sense.
16 anti-munition missiles will cost you 4 anti-air ones, which is enough for a single JAGM salvo.
That thing could be 11.3.
I don’t think it deserves 1.7 BR increase over Roland.
I can agree with the ITO going to 11.7.
But I believe the difference between ITO’s capabilties and Pantsir’s capabilities are definitely more than 0.3.
That’s true though CAS don’t get an air spawn. They must spawn on the airfield and start up their engines.
That typically gives them enough time to set up.
The (I assume IR) JAGM salvo wouldn’t occur in the first place unless you don’t have line-of-sight of the helicopter.
You take 16x anti-munition, and then have 8x anti-air missiles and then place an ammo box and you have yourself a very good all-round SPAA that can retreat into cover with no issues, guns to defend itself from gun strafes, and smoke grenades in case of overwhelming IR spam.
Yeah, I think the Flarakrad should be 11.3 and the ITO at 11.7.
They spawn at helipads, hence why Pantsirs are quite useful.
Though it’s really map dependent, and it’s not exactly easy to one-vs-one when there’s an enemy helicopter too.
A good minute or two.
Well there aren’t that many spots where helicopters usually go because if you go anywhere further than your spawn then you must go all the way back to the helipad and that takes a long time – though sometimes it’s worth it like on maps such as Pradesh, Red Desert, and Campania. Most maps aren’t worth venturing anywhere else because of little cover and no significant increase in visibility over the battlefield (Advance to the Rhine and Breslau comes into mind).
Typically heli players (including myself) balloon near or above the helipad on many other maps as a result.
At that point, you don’t really have to worry about ‘all’ helicopter spots because there are so few viable ones, and the ones you can’t engage at aren’t really spots where you could engage with the other SPAAs either. At that point, it’s really up to your aircrafts to deal with the helicopter or try intercepting its munitions / tell your team to smoke up / take cover.
So they’re ready to pressure multi vehicle AAs before they could even properly set up ?
I understand that, but losing some time on travel is still better than having problems while launching.
Most of those don’t really work in GRB though.
Once you start relying on munition interception, you’ll be burning your ammo stock like it’s nothing, even with 100% interception rate.
