The new damage model of bombers is too tough

[Ion_492]

@Ckasaron

Unfortunately yes this will happen. Much as I wish it wouldn’t. But neither of us can fix the average stupid player mentally insisting on winning by Dumb Fucking Deathmatch even though the ground units are right down there waiting to be killed.

Bombers are allowed to engage fighters directly if they want, or even chase them in some scenarios, so they can still impact matches heavily. Stuff like the Vautours, Canberras, Pe-3s, Pe-2s, Tu-2s A-20s, A-26s, B18/T18, and others all have offensive armament and they can be used to take down enemy aircraft. What are you supposed to do if one of those is trying to actively fight you?

@Ckasaron

But the mode’s already dead as far as I’m aware, or damn close to it.

And this change will entirely kill prop sim as bombers would be near impossible to take down, while still having plenty of impact on matches.

@Ckasaron

Personally I would make Bomber gunners have the same negligible spray as fighter-mounted equivalent weapons, but in exchange delete the AI controlled gunner logic entirely.

Then if the bomber is paying attention, they can get kills if the fighters approach from stupid directions. If the bomber is a bot-script or AFK, then the fighter easily slaughters them because they’re too asleep at the wheel to man their gunners. That could also be the way to help protect Sim from the bot-script horde.

That’s a pretty solid idea and I do agree.

[Venndigo7192]

I think they have been doing that in small amounts (looking at the datamines), but not enough to be that noticeable.

[xTHE_BIG_ZAPx]

@Ckasaron

Reasoning with such “Toxic Fighter Mains” or “Fighter Mafia” (pick your favorite term) is impossible, just like any equivalent attempts to reason with a Tank or Ship player who has a hate-boner for CAS. All the game can do is intentionally flip the board

Exactly, what they can’t overcome with just a little skill or simple tactics, they resort to minority tantrum foot stomping and endless whining. All the while appealing to the suggestion mods to put a thumb on the scale. Never mind that 4 years of polls have shown that 85% of the community want these buffs, they will either have their way or burn down the house.

[Casino_Knight]

You see actually it’s a good thing to have invincible space bombers taking up your entire team

Doubt.

[CommunistBalls]

@Ckasaron

this is exactly what the game needs.

yes i agree the game needs to be unplayable!

@Ckasaron

Fighters get unrealistic situational awareness and aiming ability,

so does… everything in air rb. its not like you dont have spotting either, hold c!

@Ckasaron

go land on their goddamn runways

cough cough ehh??? why dont you do that instead of:

@Ckasaron

the bombers climb to orbit.

lmao?

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

bomber buff 85% of the community

maybe like 2, at most… not even the forum has that many man…

@Ckasaron

half of fighters carry bombs

shockingly fighters are used to shoot planes not tanks and using bombs is entirely suboptimal im surprised a true bomber main doesnt know this

@Ckasaron

as I wish it wouldn’t. But neither of us can fix the average stupid player mentally insisting on winning by Dumb Fucking Deathmatch even though the ground units are right down there waiting to be killed.

maybe because its like i dont know, not fun to shoot bots? its also not fun to drag games out by doing literally nothing (exactly what you suggest doing with bombers)

@Ckasaron

the actual fucking objective

so there are infact multiple objectives… tickets, and kills. games tend to end with one team losing all players because its a pvp game, and most people actively seek to shoot other players. ones that end on tickets go to the end of the timer at least 90% of the time because someone is actively avoiding doing anything.

@Ckasaron

We all have suffered from the Bromans, the CommunistBalls

hi! good to see an old friend! not leaving anytime soon+

@Ckasaron

Not really

IRL 4-5 mineshell hits would do enough damage to knock out heavy bombers like B-24s and Lancasters… on dev its above 60, which is more than almost every MK108 armed aircraft carries… are you sure?

@Ckasaron

given how overly accurate the typical fighter is in shooting them thanks to Mouse Aim. Meanwhile Bomber gunners still artificially spray all over the place.

every plane has the same gun/cannon mechanics and all have mouse direction too. bomber gun turrets are leas accurate because the recoil causes the gun to swivel around while firing, which a human gunner has a harder time controlling. whereas a forward fixed cannon does not pivot around a point and is connected fully to the airframe, which is rigid.

@Ckasaron

Then if the bomber is paying attention, they can get kills if the fighters approach from stupid directions.

i mean like you can do this already like i said everything has freelook

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

Exactly, what they can’t overcome with just a little skill or simple tactics, they resort to minority tantrum foot stomping and endless whining

i can attribute this to the people advocating for unkillable bombers because they seem to refuse to want to use their guns or maneuver outside of a straight line. a little skill (aim) and simple tactics (turning, to give yourself a better shot) applies to… everything! including bombers!

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

4 years of polls have shown that 85% of the community want these buffs

please show as many as you can, and i doubt the game is getting killed by a few people whining about one type of planes.

[Morvran]

I stand by my opinion on the damage models. The structural changes are good. and there is largely no issue there, the issue is that the models after that suck and need fixing

@Morvran

So, Changes that are needed so far imo

1. Add additional internal modules/parts such as Control veins or oil, hydraulic, fuel lines that can be damaged and destroyed. Including making the modules more accurate and to proper scale. The engines for example are tiny with their current, old and basic models. Another module as suggested by @Cmdr_Deeno could be the oxygen supply for the crew, and appropriate mechanics regarding loss of consciousness if flying too high for too long without functional oxygern supply module(s)

Spoiler

The wings are basically empty, and the engines only take up a tiny part of the housing currently.

2. Retune self-sealing tank to deal with a limited amount of smaller calibre hits but for it to have limits, including large shells and large numbers of small hits, at which point, the tanks could at best, drain rapidly, at worse actually set on fire too (essentially have the self-sealing disable after suffecient damage has been dealt to them)
3. increase the shrapnel damage from HE rounds hitting the airframe, that way crew and internal modules could be better damaged (@OliverXRed testing in this post shows some pretty insane nonsense going on with the damage dealt by HE, in that its spall inherits the pen of the round, which for non-AP, is naturally, very low. The result is that HE is very unlikely to deal any internal damage)
4. separate the vertical and horizontal stabiliers from the rest of the tail damage model, so these parts could be damaged and destroyed seperately to the rest of the tail, and given appropriate, proportional resistance to damage
5. add aerodynamic impacts as damage to the wings accumulates. Even if they arent sheered off, they should still provide less lift and control as “holes” are blown into them, making the aircraft harder to handle. @Ion_492 Made a good suggestion that the leading edges of the wings should be added as damagable parts too.

I think this would add the right balance between bombers being made of wet paper mache and adamantium

[_Zekken]

Honestly this is what I was worried about when reading the buff notes.

Bombers needed more survivability but it couldnt go too far in the other direction. If thats the sort of damage they take they will literally be invincible. Any fighter trying to take one down will be hosed to death by the gunners

Im all for buffing bombers but making them effectively invincible is going to be terrible for gameplay.

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

So, you want to be able to have an easier time shooting down a B-17 with a sidewinder from your F-14? Therefore you want to toss the bomber buff 85% of the community has been asking for over 4 years, right? This is so typical of the fighter mafia’s spoiled garbage.

Come on dude, its blatantly obvious that this is a limit test, and if 6 Phoenixes with a combined explosive mass being near a 750lb bomb still leave a B17 flying, what the heck do you expect any WW2 era aircraft with just a pair of 20mms to do?

Edit: not to mention the Missile itself weighs 450kg. Do really think ANY airframe is strong enough to withstand something this size hitting it without being crippled?

Let alone 5 more of them?

[Morvran]

I think it was more a test of one of, if not the biggest missiles hitting it, but the video is misleading, because other missiles are killing them fine. I took a B-17 down with a single Skyflash ST earlier without any issue. So the issue, whatever the issue was, regarding missiles vs the new damage models are no longer a thing

[GxneralEagle-live]

tu95 made of pure staliminium after this update and B52 made of pure freedom a intercepter shouldn’t be willing to waster its whole ammo just to get a kill when they could have gotten much more which hopefully fixed the bomber issue

[xTHE_BIG_ZAPx]

@CommunistBalls

i can attribute this to the people advocating for unkillable bombers because they seem to refuse to want to use their guns

Hey I can use quotes too !

@CommunistBalls

i mean like you can do this already like i said everything has freelook

And then I pretend like it makes me right !

@CommunistBalls

every plane has the same gun/cannon mechanics and all have mouse direction too.

This way I become a make believe expert by just filling the void with quotes like they are facts !

@CommunistBalls

because someone is actively avoiding doing anything.

This would be 100% of the Russian main fighter mafia.

[GxneralEagle-live]

cant wait for my lore accurate B-17 and B-52 imagine the fun guys

[Beeschurger]

With how is bomber community acting up, it completly soured any positive expectation of the rework I had and now I just hope the change doesnt go through at all if this is how bomber mains want to act.

[CommunistBalls]

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

Hey I can use quotes too !

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

And then I pretend like it makes me right !

am i wrong in saying that you can also be good at the game if you bother to learn it now? i believe i am correct in that every single air vehicle in the game can hold c to pivot the camera, and some aircraft can shoot turrets while doing this!!

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

This way I become a make believe expert by just filling the void with quotes like they are facts !

at this point i have 0 idea what you are trying to say or argue with this

@xTHE_BIG_ZAPx

This would be 100% of the Russian main fighter mafia.

what

edit: i find it funny you ignored all my other responses which actually carry a point you could at least try defending against

[GxneralEagle-live]

@Beeschurger

just hope the change doesnt go through at all

hope this is a joke and it is happening confirmed its not any side shadow update this is a huge part of the update if it cant survive some 30mm cannons why play it I’m glad bombers are finally getting what they needed for a while now and wth is a bomber main😭

[GxneralEagle-live]

guys remember always snail does what snail wants if snail wants mica IR today we get mica IR today same with bomber buffs gajins wants gajins puts

[CommunistBalls]

it should happen but not in whatever the initial state was
still not seen any testing on the changes that took effect very recently will have to check back later
also its still possible for any developer to step back on what they said (looking at you rockstar)
anyway yeah i expect it to be added but probably (hopefully) not in its current state

[SinisterIsRandom]

@Kumiko_Senpai

making them nearly indestructible. I know that bombers in the game urgently need better survivability, but this should be limited to resistance against machine guns and cannons. In fact, bombers on the test server can now tank multiple missile hits, and can even survive being rammed by other aircraft;

B-17 “Mizpah” without cockpit from AA fire. The navigator and bombardier were the only ones killed.

B-17 tail that landed after it detached from the rest of the plane, but still glided in the air, where a tail gunner named Eugene P. Moran fended off the Luftwaffe before crashing. He survived, and a POW who happened to be a doctor was nearby. He died in 2014

The 30 mm needs to aim for the engines to be effective.

I’m sorry, but if your aircraft has no cockpit at all.
What you wrote is completely pointless. Cause if pilots can somehow land a bomber with nothing but pull strings cause the cockpit is gone. There are no excuses about what it should or should not take in-game.

[GxneralEagle-live]

rockstar is just a massive troll at this point next thing we know the push it to June next year… but yes a bomber shouldn’t eat a anti bomber missile the aim-54 alone should destroy any plane it impacts with

[Morvran]

@_Zekken

Come on dude, its blatantly obvious that this is a limit test, and if 6 Phoenixes with a combined explosive mass being near a 750lb bomb still leave a B17 flying, what the heck do you expect any WW2 era aircraft with just a pair of 20mms to do?

Edit: not to mention the Missile itself weighs 450kg. Do really think ANY airframe is strong enough to withstand something this size hitting it without being crippled?

Note, I dont think its anything to do with the damage model, but something wrong with the Aim-54. Because Aim-54 is giving hits, but Skyflash ST is one shotting without issue

It only took 2x SRAAMs (4kg warhead) to take down a B-29, and I dont consider that entirely unreasonable, given the very limited damage model currently and the fact they went for the tail. and not the engines like they should

[GxneralEagle-live]

That’s another issue when a player shoots the tail the whole plane magically blows up instead of the tail coming off we need more realistic damage models all together