The M15/42 being 1.4 BR above the Panzer III F is an extremely egregious balancing issue

[müncak]

Any idea why the M15/42 is a whole 1.4BR above the Pz.III F?

M15/42 is at 2.7.

Pz.III F is at 1.3.

The M15/42, fulfilling largely the same role as the Panzer III F is a sidegrade at best.

The Panzer III F is admittedly rather egregiously undertiered(I spaded it in two matches with 14k/r and 28k/d) but finding that the M15/42 exists so far above it is just utterly ridiculous.

Here’s a comparison of major characteristics in case you’re not familiar with the vehicles:

Mobility:

M15/42:

-38/3 km/h

-12.3hp/ton

Pz.III F:

+71/12 km/h

+15.2hp/ton

Main Gun:

M15/42: 47mm 47/40 mod.38

+3.8->2.9s reload

=-10/20deg depression/elevation

=9.8->14deg/s traverse, 2.8->4deg/s elevation

-APHE 62mm @ 10m, 53mm @ 500m, (+) 30g filler(not a major difference at all)

+HE 150g filler, not enough to overpressure but still useful for clearing turret crews of opentops

Pz.III F: 59mm KwK L/42

-5.2->4s reload

=-10/20deg depression/elevation

=9.8->14deg/s traverse, 2.8->4deg/s elevation

+APHEC 80mm @ 10m, 62mm @ 500m, (-) 29g filler

+APCR 116cm @ 10m, 74mm @ 500m, not terribly useful but helps to be at least capable of penning vehicles like Matildas or B1s without pixel-hunting(the former which it can’t see at 1.3 and the latter’s bis variant in a full uptier)

Armour/Survivability:

M15/42:

+Hull 50/25mm at roughly flat

+Turret 45/25mm, maybe somewhat trolly but at a br where many guns won’t even have trouble penning 90mm

-4 crew, cramped

Pz.III F

(-)Hull 30/30mm roughly flat, good for angling at the BR

(-) Turret 30/30mm, rather trolly especially against reserve guns and new players

+5 crew, not as cramped with distinct groupings of turret crew and hull crew considerably separated, difficult to oneshot with small guns

These are trade-offs I would associate with equal BR or at most 0.3 BR difference vehicles, not gosh darn 1.4 BR difference vehicles, especially these are both “medium tanks” and have nothing to do with the role of the vehicle. I feel as if the Italian mediums are given 0.3 BR changes in sequence because of largely incremental and barely noticeable upgrades that, while undoubtedly improvements, are nowhere near enough to individually justify BR hikes such that the Italian mediums just cannot keep up. Is the Pz.III F egregiously undertiered and probably 2.0 or at least 1.7 material? Yes. Are the M15/42 and to a substantial extent the M13/40(III) and M14/42 deserving of their current BRs? Absolutely not.

Before you chime in with how “nobody cares about low tier”, first of all, the Pz. III F was 2.0 many years ago, and it was purposely moved down for some reason… Second, whether the dev team will actually make a change is one thing, pointing out a highly pronounced issue is another.

[KillaKiwi]

The 47mm APHE is a nuke round compared to the German 50mm.

It’s the main reason why Italian tanks have relatively high BR.

The M15/42 can also shrug off some rounds that wound penetrate the Pz III F rather easily.

If it’s APHE wasn’t a nuke it would probably be 1.7 at most.

[YaSen]

M15/42 has better RoF and a bit better armor. Although it should be 0.3 lower as well as most of other Italian M tanks.
2.7 is obviously too high for such tank.

[Fizzy_Elf1]

while yes, the short 5cm has 20mm more pen with its aphe, and that 20mm pen difference helps massively.

then we have the actual 2.7 panzer 3 with the long 5cm with over 40mm more pen.

the italian 47 struggles against other 2.7s, let alone anything above it, there is a reason why italian early mediums are all classed as being some of the worst early game tanks.

[Sweedish_Gunner]

Penetration isn’t the be all and end all, you’re ignoring HE filler, which is what he’s saying is the reason for the high BR.

[YaSen]

They have basically the same TNT equivalent 30 g against 29 g.
Though in armor analysis, postpen is a bit better for Granata Perforante.

[Fizzy_Elf1]

Sure it isn’t the be all and end all, but when you struggle to pen ANYONE and you don’t even have good mobility to begin with, then the added positive of high explosive mass is mute.

It’s like having a 120 aphe shell at top tier but your mobility is the worst for mbt’s, sure if you get into a spot you could use that shell it be strong, but the chances of that happening is so low it’s not an actual viable play style, it’s just something that happens once a blue moon.

Also this is all pointless, because the Italian shell has ONE GRAM MORE FILLER than the German 5cm shell. They both perform the same when it comes to post pen damage. Don’t know why I didn’t bother checking their filler because if I did this who argument wouldnt have happened.

[müncak]

While the post-penetration damage on the Italian 47mm is above average for a reserve-level gun, that’s because the average is something like the Russian 45 or a bit worse even. It certainly isn’t anywhere near a ‘nuke shell’ even for the BR, that would be something like the Soviet 76, American 75 or the overpressure Swedish 75.
Also I listed the explosive filler as being 30 vs 29g, which is basically negligible plus the 50mm almost certainly spalls better before the filler detonates.

[müncak]

Also the point isn’t whether the M15/42 is better, it should be FAR better than the Panzer III F because it’s 1.4 BR higher. e.g M4A2(76)W vs. M26(the latter of which is overtiered itself) or say, Cent I vs FV4202. The fact that significant debate can exist on which one is better given such a massive BR difference is demonstrative of the issue.

[KillaKiwi]

Nah, it deals almost as much damage as a 88mm Pzgr. 39.

Don’t think it’s much worse than a Russian 76mm.

Spoiler

Significantly more than the 50mm APHE:

Spoiler

[müncak]

Huh. I distinctly remember it usually just barely being able to take out two-man turret crews.
I don’t have my game right now, but I find it really strange that the post-pen is like this when there is no real reason for it to, compared to the Soviet 76 and the 88mm default round. Will mess around a bit myself with it against different targets later.
But considering that it’s the same BR as the Matilda, 60ish mm of pen really isn’t enough, not while its other stats are awful. Due to the funny shell a comparison with the Strv m/42 EH is probably warranted, which really does not end favourably for the Italian tank anyways, it being outmatched in literally all aspects except reload…
Also, the cramped nature of reserve-level tanks, which the Pz.III F sees basically every game, means that post-pen is a much lesser issue at its BR except against things like the T-28 or the silly multi-turret heavies.
imo the M15/42 is probably still just 2.3 material or maybe 2.0 and the other variants should go to like 1.3-1.7, while Pz.III F should also go up to 1.7 or 2.0.

[Csirkespite]

To be honest the M15/42 is the second most fun italian techtree WW2 mediumtank for me, just after the P40.