Not gonna lie… most of the sources in that report are of… questionable quality at best.
A 420mm KE upper plate protection at the LoS thickness given would give it better/superior modifier than some of the nano-ceramic composites created in 2010s by Germany/US/Japan/etc, it’s simply not beliveable.
If it won’t change anything then it could very well stay where it is currently.
It pretty much just reverted to how it should be.
They are. And the addition of the turret basket to them massively degressed their capability.
And it didnt reflect well anymore that the leos are in fact better then leclercs.
Brother it’s a game, it’s supposed to be balanced. If the Leclerc really is worse than the Leo 2 then it shouldn’t be at the same BR, otherwise they’re just clay targets to enable you to powertrip in your Leo.
Unfortunate. I had hope. It was accepted/forwarded though, so maybe it is correct? But its been 2 years so chances are limited that it gets implemented.
Has never been the case.
Gajin advertises themself with realism.
While they try to balance stuff. Its trough reload speed or armament. Not ridiculous stuff like this.
Thats what brs are for, but its to compromised.
There just exist better vehicles over the others thats natural
Rafale is bullshit dominating since a long time as well.
Guy tries to argue balance wuth stuff like the BMPT, cant stop laughing.
When one side gets onesided massive nerfs, thats not balance
Except they’re being very selective with their realism and the Leclerc isn’t properly modeled in multiple ways, like its UFP and mobility, so…
Also, “there are other examples of things not being balanced therefore it’s fine if it’s unbalanced elsewhere” is a mentality that’s toxic as hell and honestly I don’t think you’re arguing in good faith.
And the Leclerc could absolutely go down in BR (and so too could some other MBTs but that’s not the subject) after this massive nerf.
I literally called out the BMPT in the post that you initially quoted as being broken AF:
So you can miss me with your strawmen thank you very much.
…wat
Of course it can be balance, if you have a vehicle that’s overperforming (not saying it was the case of the Leo 2 and Abrams however) then it’s perfectly fine for it to get a nerf. Like, what kind of absurd logic is that? Going by your logic, the BMPT shouldn’t be unilaterally nerfed. Spoiler warning: IT ABSOLUTELY SHOULD.
Lowkey thinking gaijin is balancing top tier like a rpg game rather than realism. Like Leclerc with 5 seconds and fairly good mobility so the armor must be shit. Or the Type 10 is so good in firepower so we make it hard stop when turning to limit the mobility.
Or ZTZ best mobility on paper so the reload rate be like T72 (even tho they are not the same) so it’s on par with T80.
Or the T90M no reverse with slowest reload, so we make it able to drive through the corner, tank a shot and keep going while pretty much every other tank in the game would be dead or disabled
So is the leopard.
Its all modelled after the legal official sources we got strictly speaken gajin is not wrong for that.
I never argued there coulsnt be br changes.
But down? Absolutly not. The br range overall needs to be increased
Ohh no, i didnt remember to check your very first post in a conversation that went over hours in between.
Oh please cry me a river. Thats no strawman
The turret baskets in its sense arent “nerfs” its a new feature that is being rolled out to every vehicle. It only being applied to 2 tank variants is what made it a nerf.
The turrret baskets in itself arent a balancing feature, just a very badly implemented function. Which turned into a nerf the way it was handled.
Your argument just doesnt stand.
Okay we’re gonna have to make one thing clear once and for all:
Just because it happens to the Leopard does not mean that it’s right for other to be affected as well. If there’s something wrong with the Leo, go make your arguments in a thread dedicated to it instead of this one.
Yes they are. The UFP of the Leclerc can’t even stop M735 despite being one of the worst APFDS round in the game. Whatever your opinion on the Leclerc armor is, that’s absolutely absurd level of performance. Especially since that area has an estimated LOS thickness of 600mm+, yet a round with sub 300mm pen can go through it just fine.
I’ve also made bug report about the armor failing to bounce round that it should have bounced or shells penetrating despite those areas supposedly being protected, to no avail.
As for the mobility:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/159448s/toe_to_toe_comparison_of_top_tier_mbt_traversing/
The Leclerc not only has a higher HP/t than most of these tanks, it also uses a gas turbine instead of a turbocharger to eliminate turbo lag. It should be one of the most mobile top tier MBTs, instead it’s one of the worst.
Going to quote you here:
When you tell me “BRs are too compromised” followed by “some vehicle are just better that’s natural”, that does not imply support of BR changes.
I will also point out that I spoke about BR changes to offset the changes and you literally quoted that very part:
If you’re not opposed to BR changes then what was even the point of this post in the first place?
I’m all in favor of BR decompression and max BR being increased, but in the meantime I don’t see why the Leclerc can’t be brought down. The M1A2 is 12.0 while being nearly superior in nearly every way.
I’m sorry I expected you to be able to follow a conversation that lasted like 3 posts at that point. Apparently that’s too much of a hurdle.
To every vehicle… Except the ones that needs it the most, I.E. the BMPTs. Selective realism is a huge problem here.
And it is objectively a nerf no matter how many vehicle are impacted, as it reduces the chances of being able to fight back when hit but not destroyed.
On this we agree.
But I also want to point out the discrepancies with how gaijin implement them.
This is the Leclerc + FCS:
Abrams:
T-80 BVM:
Yet somehow, these vehicles have the exact same features in game. Like, how is it an even remotely fair implementation, or even just… logical? Again, gaijin is having a massive case of selective realism.
You’re the one who said, and I quote “When one side gets onesided massive nerfs, thats not balance”. I provided you an example to show you that yes, onesided nerfs can indeed be justifiable in some situations.
Everyone gets equaly screwed for the mist psrt besides russia. That has npthing to do with leos.
I just want to show that the leclerc isnt anything special or getting singled out.
Then its easy provide sources that proof that.
End of the day its the internet, everyone can just state stuff.
Regenerative steering old debate
U quotes yourself there
Even at the same br there will always be better and stronger ones. You can make them all the same.
U not realising everything can go your way.
As i said no matter what and how nuch u decompress. There will always be victors and losers.
Wont start that debate with you.
When u are at work, have other things to do and only take a quick break yes. There is other things u think about.
Never said its wrong it didnt receive one.
It should receive it as well.
Features and nerfs are different things.
The russians argue they dont have a turret basket cause their tanks function differently
No u didnt realy
Leclerc underperforming compared to its peer has basically nothing to do with regenerative steering.
It’s due to the way automatic transmission is modeled, as well as the fact that vehicles like the Leclerc and Abrams using turbines to get effectively 0 turbo lag don’t see any benefits in game (cause torque is not modeled in game)
And yet you kinda are when you are completely against the Leclerc going to the same BR.
Features can be both buffs and nerf. Especially when they are added selectively to only part of vehicles when all should receive it.
Which is the definition of selective realism in my books.
yeah thats an area i have no knowledge of
i am against discussing it , cause i dont actualy know enough about the abrams to compare them.
If i have no info about sth i keep my hands of it.
I can compare leos to the leclercs, and yes leos are better thats why i said they could be increased with everything. But not further compressing trough lowering the leclerc br
as i said with the leos. one sides additions are nerfs yes. if all have them its not a nerf anymore, as it should be and what i said the whole time
didnt argue that either, but unless we can prove it otherwise.
We have to listen to a biased russian tech mod who asks for classified material in the forums
Mate. You keep bringing up the Leopard almost every damn post, it has absolutely something to do with the Leo for you. You even admit that you don’t know enough about the Abrams to make a judgement.
I also never said or implied that this was unique to the Leclerc, but in case you haven’t noticed this is a thread about the Leclerc hence why I’m only talking about it. The Leclerc is also one of the most mid top tier tank with no real strength, making this uncompensated nerf all the harsher.
There were multiple bug reports made on the issue. They went nowhere because gaijin always has this sisyphean requirements of providing multiple authoritative open sources about vehicles still in active service.
Lack of regenerative steering is a problem but this is obviously something else. Every tank lack regenerative steering, yet the Leclerc performs worse than it should in this context.
I gave you all the knowledge you needed to make an assessment on the situation, basic critical thinking is all you needed to notice that something was wrong in this video.
Oh come on, you know it’s your post, the forum simply miscredited it.
Yeah, within reason. When this change go through there’s no objective argument for the Leclerc staying as it is, just like there was never any objective reason for the Ariete to be at the BR ceiling despite being worse than every other MBTs at its BR.
YOU DON’T SAY SHERLOCK
You think I don’t know that? Have you seen how many posts this thread has?
I know full well everything can’t go my way, hell almost nothing in this game goes the players’ way. We could write a book with gaijin’s bad decisions. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to call them out all the same. The only way to make sure that nothing improves is to not say or do anything.
Then don’t say things that you’re not sure about. It’s pretty simple.
They are not mutually exclusive. It’s a new feature that is aimed at reducing the fighting capabilities of vehicles in case of a penetration. It is, by any definition of the word, a nerf.
In case you haven’t noticed I didn’t chose only the turret drive, I also included the FCS. There’s a reason for that. The BVM somehow has the exact same feature as the Leclerc while having a tenth of the FCS modules. This is completely illogical and unfair. Even the Abrams is extremely small in comparison. Either:
Either way, the implementation is uneven, lopsided and ultimately unfair.
But you know enough about the Leclerc to pass judgment on it?
Also, the wiki and in game values are there for anyone to check, you don’t need to play the Abrams to know where it stands in terms of balance when coupled with your own experience of using vehicles at similar BR and fighting against them.
If you can’t be bothered to inform yourself on it, then you shouldn’t be discussing balance issues.
Are there any buffs that can be given to the Leclerc in the current game that can give it more viability?
A new type of shell?
We need decompression rather than further compression.
Then the Leclercs can stay where they are.
Then it must take a feed from somewhere? Is it directly driven by the engine?
Turret drives have to be driven by Hydraulic systems or electrical motors.
Do you think being 0.3br from top tier will change anything about their matchmaker?
Do you think being 0.3 BR away from top-tier whilst top-tier remains at 12.7 will change anything?
Gaijin’s never going to decompress to 13.3 in a single update, I’m just being realistic here.
