The Leclerc is in dire need of a buff

[Mobius_Einherjar]

@dotSHINI

So is the leopard.

Okay we’re gonna have to make one thing clear once and for all:
Just because it happens to the Leopard does not mean that it’s right for other to be affected as well. If there’s something wrong with the Leo, go make your arguments in a thread dedicated to it instead of this one.

@dotSHINI

Its all modelled after the legal official sources we got strictly speaken gajin is not wrong for that.

Yes they are. The UFP of the Leclerc can’t even stop M735 despite being one of the worst APFDS round in the game. Whatever your opinion on the Leclerc armor is, that’s absolutely absurd level of performance. Especially since that area has an estimated LOS thickness of 600mm+, yet a round with sub 300mm pen can go through it just fine.

I’ve also made bug report about the armor failing to bounce round that it should have bounced or shells penetrating despite those areas supposedly being protected, to no avail.

As for the mobility:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/159448s/toe_to_toe_comparison_of_top_tier_mbt_traversing/

The Leclerc not only has a higher HP/t than most of these tanks, it also uses a gas turbine instead of a turbocharger to eliminate turbo lag. It should be one of the most mobile top tier MBTs, instead it’s one of the worst.

@dotSHINI

I never argued there coulsnt be br changes.

Going to quote you here:

@Mobius_Einherjar

Thats what brs are for, but its to compromised.
There just exist better vehicles over the others thats natural

When you tell me “BRs are too compromised” followed by “some vehicle are just better that’s natural”, that does not imply support of BR changes.

I will also point out that I spoke about BR changes to offset the changes and you literally quoted that very part:

If you’re not opposed to BR changes then what was even the point of this post in the first place?

@dotSHINI

But down? Absolutly not. The br range overall needs to be increased

I’m all in favor of BR decompression and max BR being increased, but in the meantime I don’t see why the Leclerc can’t be brought down. The M1A2 is 12.0 while being nearly superior in nearly every way.

@dotSHINI

Ohh no, i didnt remember to check your very first post in a conversation that went over hours in between.

Oh please cry me a river. Thats no strawman

I’m sorry I expected you to be able to follow a conversation that lasted like 3 posts at that point. Apparently that’s too much of a hurdle.

@dotSHINI

The turret baskets in its sense arent “nerfs” its a new feature that is being rolled out to every vehicle.

To every vehicle… Except the ones that needs it the most, I.E. the BMPTs. Selective realism is a huge problem here.
And it is objectively a nerf no matter how many vehicle are impacted, as it reduces the chances of being able to fight back when hit but not destroyed.

@dotSHINI

The turrret baskets in itself arent a balancing feature, just a very badly implemented function. Which turned into a nerf the way it was handled.

On this we agree.

But I also want to point out the discrepancies with how gaijin implement them.

This is the Leclerc + FCS:

Abrams:

T-80 BVM:

Yet somehow, these vehicles have the exact same features in game. Like, how is it an even remotely fair implementation, or even just… logical? Again, gaijin is having a massive case of selective realism.

@dotSHINI

Your argument just doesnt stand.

You’re the one who said, and I quote “When one side gets onesided massive nerfs, thats not balance”. I provided you an example to show you that yes, onesided nerfs can indeed be justifiable in some situations.

[dotSHINI]

@Mobius_Einherjar

Okay we’re gonna have to make one thing clear once and for all:
Just because it happens to the Leopard does not mean that it’s right for other to be affected as well. If there’s something wrong with the Leo, go make your arguments in a thread dedicated to it instead of this one

Everyone gets equaly screwed for the mist psrt besides russia. That has npthing to do with leos.
I just want to show that the leclerc isnt anything special or getting singled out.

@Mobius_Einherjar

Especially since that area has an estimated LOS thickness of 600mm+, yet a round with sub 300mm pen can go through it just fine.

Then its easy provide sources that proof that.
End of the day its the internet, everyone can just state stuff.

@Mobius_Einherjar

As for the mobility:

Regenerative steering old debate

@Mobius_Einherjar

Going to quote you here:

U quotes yourself there

@Mobius_Einherjar

When you tell me “BRs are too compromised” followed by “some vehicle are just better that’s natural”, that does not imply support of BR changes.

Even at the same br there will always be better and stronger ones. You can make them all the same.

@Mobius_Einherjar

If you’re not opposed to BR changes then what was even the point of this post in the first place?

U not realising everything can go your way.
As i said no matter what and how nuch u decompress. There will always be victors and losers.

@Mobius_Einherjar

The M1A2 is 12.0 while being nearly superior in nearly every way.

Wont start that debate with you.

@Mobius_Einherjar

I’m sorry I expected you to be able to follow a conversation that lasted like 3 posts at that point. Apparently that’s too much of a hurdle.

When u are at work, have other things to do and only take a quick break yes. There is other things u think about.

@Mobius_Einherjar

To every vehicle… Except the ones that needs it the most, I.E. the BMPTs. Selective realism is a huge problem here.

Never said its wrong it didnt receive one.
It should receive it as well.

@Mobius_Einherjar

And it is objectively a nerf no matter how many vehicle are impacted, as it reduces the chances of being able to fight back when hit but not destroyed.

Features and nerfs are different things.

@Mobius_Einherjar

Yet somehow, these vehicles have the exact same features in game. Like, how is it an even remotely fair implementation, or even just… logical? Again, gaijin is having a massive case of selective realism.

The russians argue they dont have a turret basket cause their tanks function differently

@Mobius_Einherjar

. I provided you an example to show you that yes, onesided nerfs can indeed be justifiable in some situations.

No u didnt realy

[vizender]

@dotSHINI

Regenerative steering old debate

Leclerc underperforming compared to its peer has basically nothing to do with regenerative steering.
It’s due to the way automatic transmission is modeled, as well as the fact that vehicles like the Leclerc and Abrams using turbines to get effectively 0 turbo lag don’t see any benefits in game (cause torque is not modeled in game)

@dotSHINI

Wont start that debate with you.

And yet you kinda are when you are completely against the Leclerc going to the same BR.

@dotSHINI

Features and nerfs are different things.

Features can be both buffs and nerf. Especially when they are added selectively to only part of vehicles when all should receive it.

@dotSHINI

The russians argue they dont have a turret basket cause their tanks function differently

Which is the definition of selective realism in my books.

[dotSHINI]

@vizender

Leclerc underperforming compared to its peer has basically nothing to do with regenerative steering.
It’s due to the way automatic transmission is modeled, as well as the fact that vehicles like the Leclerc and Abrams using turbines to get effectively 0 turbo lag don’t see any benefits in game (cause torque is not modeled in game)

yeah thats an area i have no knowledge of

@vizender

And yet you kinda are when you are completely against the Leclerc going to the same BR.

i am against discussing it , cause i dont actualy know enough about the abrams to compare them.
If i have no info about sth i keep my hands of it.
I can compare leos to the leclercs, and yes leos are better thats why i said they could be increased with everything. But not further compressing trough lowering the leclerc br

@vizender

Especially when they are added selectively to only part of vehicles when all should receive it.

as i said with the leos. one sides additions are nerfs yes. if all have them its not a nerf anymore, as it should be and what i said the whole time

@vizender

Which is the definition of selective realism in my books.

didnt argue that either, but unless we can prove it otherwise.
We have to listen to a biased russian tech mod who asks for classified material in the forums

[Mobius_Einherjar]

@dotSHINI

Everyone gets equaly screwed for the mist psrt besides russia. That has npthing to do with leos.
I just want to show that the leclerc isnt anything special or getting singled out.

Mate. You keep bringing up the Leopard almost every damn post, it has absolutely something to do with the Leo for you. You even admit that you don’t know enough about the Abrams to make a judgement.

I also never said or implied that this was unique to the Leclerc, but in case you haven’t noticed this is a thread about the Leclerc hence why I’m only talking about it. The Leclerc is also one of the most mid top tier tank with no real strength, making this uncompensated nerf all the harsher.

@dotSHINI

Then its easy provide sources that proof that.
End of the day its the internet, everyone can just state stuff.

There were multiple bug reports made on the issue. They went nowhere because gaijin always has this sisyphean requirements of providing multiple authoritative open sources about vehicles still in active service.

@dotSHINI

Regenerative steering old debate

@dotSHINI

yeah thats an area i have no knowledge of

Lack of regenerative steering is a problem but this is obviously something else. Every tank lack regenerative steering, yet the Leclerc performs worse than it should in this context.
I gave you all the knowledge you needed to make an assessment on the situation, basic critical thinking is all you needed to notice that something was wrong in this video.

@dotSHINI

U quotes yourself there

Oh come on, you know it’s your post, the forum simply miscredited it.

@dotSHINI

Even at the same br there will always be better and stronger ones. You can make them all the same.

Yeah, within reason. When this change go through there’s no objective argument for the Leclerc staying as it is, just like there was never any objective reason for the Ariete to be at the BR ceiling despite being worse than every other MBTs at its BR.

@dotSHINI

U not realising everything can go your way.

YOU DON’T SAY SHERLOCK
You think I don’t know that? Have you seen how many posts this thread has?
I know full well everything can’t go my way, hell almost nothing in this game goes the players’ way. We could write a book with gaijin’s bad decisions. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to call them out all the same. The only way to make sure that nothing improves is to not say or do anything.

@dotSHINI

When u are at work, have other things to do and only take a quick break yes. There is other things u think about.

Then don’t say things that you’re not sure about. It’s pretty simple.

@dotSHINI

Features and nerfs are different things.

They are not mutually exclusive. It’s a new feature that is aimed at reducing the fighting capabilities of vehicles in case of a penetration. It is, by any definition of the word, a nerf.

@dotSHINI

The russians argue they dont have a turret basket cause their tanks function differently

In case you haven’t noticed I didn’t chose only the turret drive, I also included the FCS. There’s a reason for that. The BVM somehow has the exact same feature as the Leclerc while having a tenth of the FCS modules. This is completely illogical and unfair. Even the Abrams is extremely small in comparison. Either:

• Gaijin modeled modules as FCS on the Leclerc when they aren’t
• Some of these modules are there for redundancy and shouldn’t be counted as critical modules (like how the A-10 is designed with redundancy features in mind but gaijin treats every system as necessary, which is absolutely not how it should be)
• Gaijin is missing FCS modules on other MBTs

Either way, the implementation is uneven, lopsided and ultimately unfair.

@dotSHINI

i am against discussing it , cause i dont actualy know enough about the abrams to compare them.

But you know enough about the Leclerc to pass judgment on it?

Also, the wiki and in game values are there for anyone to check, you don’t need to play the Abrams to know where it stands in terms of balance when coupled with your own experience of using vehicles at similar BR and fighting against them.
If you can’t be bothered to inform yourself on it, then you shouldn’t be discussing balance issues.

[Normandy_Corsair]

Are there any buffs that can be given to the Leclerc in the current game that can give it more viability?

[Coffee_is_GAS]

A new type of shell?

[Necrons31467]

@Mobius_Einherjar

And the Leclerc could absolutely go down in BR (and so too could some other MBTs but that’s not the subject) after this massive nerf.

We need decompression rather than further compression.

• Leopard 2A7V, 2A7HU, Strv 122A, 122B PLSS & 122B+ 12.7 > 13.0
• M1A1 HC, AIM, Click-Bait, M1A2 12.0 > 12.3
• T-72B3A 12.3 > 11.7
• T-90M 12.7 > 12.3
• Leopard 2A6, 2 PSO 12.7 > 12.3

Then the Leclercs can stay where they are.

[luque13]

Then it must take a feed from somewhere? Is it directly driven by the engine?
Turret drives have to be driven by Hydraulic systems or electrical motors.

[Normandy_Corsair]

Do you think being 0.3br from top tier will change anything about their matchmaker?

[Necrons31467]

Do you think being 0.3 BR away from top-tier whilst top-tier remains at 12.7 will change anything?

Gaijin’s never going to decompress to 13.3 in a single update, I’m just being realistic here.

[Normandy_Corsair]

You’re not really being realistic. If gaijin raises the BR cap, they will simply raise the Leclercs and merkavas and arietes and every other crap top tier MBT along with it because they don’t care about that

[Necrons31467]

Quite a number of the lesser MBT’s weren’t moved up last time, that includes some of the Arietes and Merkavas, so clearly that’s not true.

Furthermore, you’re dodging answering my question: Is my method preferable over the one mentioned in the other reply or not?

[MOTULCOW]

I think Leclerc and Ariete are getting HE rounds per Datamine. Correct me if I’m wrong tho

[Mobius_Einherjar]

@Normandy_Corsair

Are there any buffs that can be given to the Leclerc in the current game that can give it more viability?

Fixing its UFP, fixing its mobility, giving it the SHARD APFDS.

@Necrons31467

We need decompression rather than further compression.

• Leopard 2A7V, 2A7HU, Strv 122A, 122B PLSS & 122B+ 12.7 > 13.0
• M1A1 HC, AIM, Click-Bait, M1A2 12.0 > 12.3
• T-72B3A 12.3 > 11.7
• T-90M 12.7 > 12.3
• Leopard 2A6, 2 PSO 12.7 > 12.3

Then the Leclercs can stay where they are.

I’m all for decompression but 0.3 BR isn’t going to make any difference. Also lol at the Leo 2A6 and PSO going down to 12.3 while the Leclerc stays at 12.7.

Again: With this nerf, the Leclerc is worse than the Abrams in every way. It can be at the same BR as the M1A2.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@Mobius_Einherjar

Also lol at the Leo 2A6 and PSO going down to 12.3 while the Leclerc stays at 12.7.

Didn’t notice this but yea Leclerc definitely isn’t superior to the 2a5

[IHаteCAS]

It depends,
On maps where 2A5 can use its turret, it’s better.
Otherwise Leclerc is better, mainly due to reload, albeit I wouldn’t be opposed to 12.3 Leclerc.
For M1A1 HC variants to stay at 12.3, they’d need M829A2 removed at minimum and be given A1 instead, though overall I’d prefer them going to 12.7.

[vizender]

@Necrons31467

We need decompression rather than further compression.

• Leopard 2A7V, 2A7HU, Strv 122A, 122B PLSS & 122B+ 12.7 > 13.0
• M1A1 HC, AIM, Click-Bait, M1A2 12.0 > 12.3
• T-72B3A 12.3 > 11.7
• T-90M 12.7 > 12.3
• Leopard 2A6, 2 PSO 12.7 > 12.3

Then the Leclercs can stay where they are.

I personally highly disagree with the opinion that the 2A6 should be at a lower BR than the Leclerc. I also think that the T90M, despite it flaws, has enough good characteristics to stay at the same BR as well (tho the 72B3 can go down)

Anyway, new HE shell (finally) dropped on dev for the Leclerc. Had to wait for another nation (Centauro 2) to get it for a French vehicle to actually have a French shell

[Necrons31467]

@vizender

I personally highly disagree with the opinion that the 2A6 should be at a lower BR than the Leclerc.

The 2A6 is on-par with an M1A2 which currently sits at 12.0, and is 12.3 in my proposed changes.

I suppose that means the M1A2 and M1A1’s need to either be moved to 12.7 together with the 2A5 and 2A6, or the Leclercs have to be lowered to 12.3 together with the 2A6, M1A2, etc.

Either way, the current BR’s make no sense.

@vizender

the T90M, despite it flaws, has enough good characteristics to stay at the same BR

It does not.

I was being generous with 12.3, it could also be 12.0.

It’s got atrocious mobility, awful firepower, mediocre gun handling, unreliable armour and RNG survivability.
It’s the lowest performing MBT at 12.7 statistically and that makes complete sense given it’s awful attributes.

Literally the only thing going for it is the fact that premium/bad players occasionally mess up their shots on it’s armour, but then why the heck would I want to be playing a T-90M when I can also have them mess up shots against a 2A7V or Strv 122 that offers actual mobility, gun depression and a better reload?

[vizender]

@Necrons31467

why the heck would I want to be playing a T-90M when I can also have them mess up shots against a 2A7V or Strv 122

I personally think that it could stay at the Leclerc and M1A2 BR, considering the other proposed change of decompressing the strv and Leo2a7 to a higher BR. Its armor layout still makes it a pain in 1v1 situation where it can rush a lower armored tank and shoot it center of mass, while the other player would loose precious time aiming at its weak spots.
The same applies to the 2A7 and 122, but those having other huge benefits other the T90M should also be decompressed to a higher BR